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Usually, when a party I'm playing in encounters a door and opens it, I wonder about certain details the might seem moot but could actually be germane to the encounter.
It seems that most scenarios do not let you know which way the doors open (inward and away from you or outward and towards you). I've seen maps on occasion outline this, but I don't think most do.
Okay, most of you are probably thinking...why gives a ¢2@6! This might be minutiae, but it's interesting to ponder more detailed encounter mechanics if the GM is willing to juggle it.
It seems that it's assumed you can't use the door to your advantage. Such as, I open the door (which swings outward and towards me) and I stay behind it. I then peek my head around (I would think you'd have improved cover with just the top of your head showing) to see inside the room.
It's always assumed that your character just swings the door open and stands in the open for all to see.
Also, when there are double doors and the party says they're opening the door(s), the GM (myself included) simply assumes both doors are wide open. Now you have a 10' gap opened up instead of just 5'.
Doors are always wide open. They're almost never partially open (other than possibly noted in opening box text), where a character could go behind the door that opened inward into a room partway and be in the square adjacent to the doorway with cover towards the direction of the open doorway.
Notice how open doors never get in the way of an encounter occurring through a doorway (at least they never do at tables I'm at).
And, many GM's assume that the moment a character opens a door with enemies on the other side, the initiative immediately starts without allowing the character to do an immediate/move action to close the door once he gets a glimpse of what's inside. C'mon, how many times in life have you quickly opened and closed a door because you goofed on opening it in the first place?
I'm sure there are some GM's out there that do dabble in these mechanics. I've never happened to be at such a table. And, when I've tried bringing it up at a table to see if I could take advantage of a doorway "situation" it usually ends up with the GM saying, well did you open the door or not (I'm paraphrasing here). It's open or not and it doesn't matter what direction or whatever.
Anyone experience interesting "door mechanics" in their games?
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I'd say table variation, except this is a slightly different piece of furniture.
I agree, but doors are a bit more ubiquitous and largely of common mechanics between one another. Furniture can create a minor distraction, difficult terrain, something to jump on, but quite varied depending on the scenario.
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And, many GM's assume that the moment a character opens a door with enemies on the other side, the initiative immediately starts without allowing the character to do an immediate/move action to close the door once he gets a glimpse of what's inside. C'mon, how many times in life have you quickly opened and closed a door because you goofed on opening it in the first place
I think I would do at least a perception check for the fellows and party that opens/closes the door, to determine if they saw/heard people, saw the door open, heard the door creak, etc.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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You could just ask the GM which way the door opens. If the map doesn't tell him, the GM is free to make it up any way he likes. And then you can use whatever tactic makes sense in the situation.
I think generally GMs will be willing to let you use doors, but you have to ask for it.
That's halrious.
The incorrect situation plays out in my head kinda like this-
"Hay, can I open this unlocked door? I don't have open/close, but I think I can open it with my hands."
"Hmm. There's no rules for that, so clearly the game intends you just stand there until you have that spell, or you break it down."
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You could just ask the GM which way the door opens. If the map doesn't tell him, the GM is free to make it up any way he likes. And then you can use whatever tactic makes sense in the situation.
I think generally GMs will be willing to let you use doors, but you have to ask for it.
True, but usually that's the only "mechanic" that's brought into the game. at times I've wanted to try to do something with that knowledge only to have the party/GM too anxious to deal with the details or a party member simply darts through the door regardless. Still, the other mechanics I note above seem to be never considered.
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Most architects build doors so that they open into a room, so that it is possible to block or bar the door in the case of intrusion. Sticking to this rule of thumb will give you the best answer 90% of the time.
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If you say it in full, like you explain above, in advance, I doubt many GMs would disallow such tactics. However, whenever you say "I open the door" they're going to assume that you open it fully and are still in the doorway.
Absolutely, but for the few times I've tried or I've seen it tried, the GM assumes combat is initiated and forces the player to wait their turn before "quickly" closing the door. Even if the allies all delay, the foes have an opportunity to use their full move action to go through the door or a standard to set something off. It's a GM's way of shutting down the tactic.
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Small things like this, along with how to determine surprise rounds, are a big part of the game thats never exactly defined. As a result they're one of the larger points of variation. Some DMs seem to have either you surprised or the enemies holding an action behind a door every. single. time.
Indeed BNW, but magically when you tell the GM that YOU wish to have a readied action for when someone opens a door, they say you can't ready out of combat.
Rather annoying isn't it?
This is when you fire the GM.
Of course, then someone else would have to run the game.
Oh, that ever-annoying fact that you can't run and play at the same time.
That is one very frustrating rule, you cannot ready out of combat...it makes no sense.
Witch is why you should, have a rulebook on you at all times, and every page with frequently misused combat rules marked.
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That is one very frustrating rule, you cannot ready out of combat...it makes no sense.
The problem is that players try to abuse readied actions. Here are true stories of things players have tried to "ready" in games I have GMed:
-"I ready an action to drink my mutagen as soon as we roll initiative."
-"I have a move of 30, so as we walk along this two mile-long trail I continually move 30' then ready an action to magic missile if I see a goblin."
-"I take the lead and each round ready an action to cast resilient sphere if I am attacked."
As BNW has alluded to, one facet of the issue is that very few GMs are comfortable deciding when to give players a surprise round. That means players are reduced to using readied actions to simulate what they would do if they got a surprise round.
I try to let players have a chance at a surprise round when there is a legitimate way they could achieve it (though of course enemies get a chance to act as well if they succeed on a check). This effectively gives players a "readied action" (a standard or move) before enemies act.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The "ready before combat" problem is persistent and tricky.
It's common sense for people to want to ready before combat, and you'll find NPCs doing it in scenarios now and then I'm sure. So there ought to be something like that for PCs.
On the other hand, it could indeed easily be abused; if everyone starts with readied actions, that would take a lot of the excitement out of an opening round of combat because the initiative order is already half-established and the PCs mercilessly take advantage of flat-footed opponents. When PCs do this thing properly, it's usually more powerful than when a few scripted peons in a scenario do it poorly.
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That is one very frustrating rule, you cannot ready out of combat...it makes no sense.
Sure it does.
You see this all the time in fiction novels, TV, and movies. The badguy (or in some cases the goodguy) has their gun trained on a door. And the person coming through the door is able to bash it down, do a somersault and kick the gun out of their hand before they can shoot.
Just because you have your gun trained on the door waiting for someone to come through it, does not mean you will have initiative to actually fire the gun before they can do something about it.
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That is one very frustrating rule, you cannot ready out of combat...it makes no sense.The problem is that players try to abuse readied actions. Here are true stories of things players have tried to "ready" in games I have GMed:
-"I ready an action to drink my mutagen as soon as we roll initiative."
-"I have a move of 30, so as we walk along this two mile-long trail I continually move 30' then ready an action to magic missile if I see a goblin."
-"I take the lead and each round ready an action to cast resilient sphere if I am attacked."As BNW has alluded to, one facet of the issue is that very few GMs are comfortable deciding when to give players a surprise round. That means players are reduced to using readied actions to simulate what they would do if they got a surprise round.
I try to let players have a chance at a surprise round when there is a legitimate way they could achieve it (though of course enemies get a chance to act as well if they succeed on a check). This effectively gives players a "readied action" (a standard or move) before enemies act.
I agree with this. I have no problem allowing players to get a surprise round if they've made the preparations to do so and the circumstances don't somehow prevent it.
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that's fine, so long as both parties are bound by it.That is one very frustrating rule, you cannot ready out of combat...it makes no sense.Sure it does.
You see this all the time in fiction novels, TV, and movies. The badguy (or in some cases the goodguy) has their gun trained on a door. And the person coming through the door is able to bash it down, do a somersault and kick the gun out of their hand before they can shoot.
Just because you have your gun trained on the door waiting for someone to come through it, does not mean you will have initiative to actually fire the gun before they can do something about it.
They are. I try to be consistent.
Oh, and for those who say there isn't a rule about this:
1) There isn't a rule that specifically says you can't ready outside of combat.
2) There doesn't need to be for this to be the rule.
3) Readying is a special initiative action.
4) If you are not in initiative, you cannot take an initiative action.
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The "ready before combat" problem is persistent and tricky.
It's common sense for people to want to ready before combat, and you'll find NPCs doing it in scenarios now and then I'm sure. So there ought to be something like that for PCs.
On the other hand, it could indeed easily be abused; if everyone starts with readied actions, that would take a lot of the excitement out of an opening round of combat because the initiative order is already half-established and the PCs mercilessly take advantage of flat-footed opponents. When PCs do this thing properly, it's usually more powerful than when a few scripted peons in a scenario do it poorly.
There's a major difference between PC's and NPC's due to circumstances.
PC's are generally exploring unknown terrain, or a foreign complex of which they have little to know knowledge of. NPC's on the other hand are set... either they are in hiding set up for ambush if they're highwaymen, or they've been triggered by perceiving sounds of combat in a room several spaces over or the floor below so they have prior warning of incoming PC's so they've got the opportunity to prepare for ccompany. NPC's have a home field advantage, and they should be making full use of that fact.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The "ready before combat" problem is persistent and tricky.
It's common sense for people to want to ready before combat, and you'll find NPCs doing it in scenarios now and then I'm sure. So there ought to be something like that for PCs.
On the other hand, it could indeed easily be abused; if everyone starts with readied actions, that would take a lot of the excitement out of an opening round of combat because the initiative order is already half-established and the PCs mercilessly take advantage of flat-footed opponents. When PCs do this thing properly, it's usually more powerful than when a few scripted peons in a scenario do it poorly.
There's a major difference between PC's and NPC's due to circumstances.
PC's are generally exploring unknown terrain, or a foreign complex of which they have little to know knowledge of. NPC's on the other hand are set... either they are in hiding set up for ambush if they're highwaymen, or they've been triggered by perceiving sounds of combat in a room several spaces over or the floor below so they have prior warning of incoming PC's so they've got the opportunity to prepare for ccompany. NPC's have a home field advantage, and they should be making full use of that fact.
I don't think that's a really good basis for decision. What if the PCs have more home advantage than the NPCs? For example, if the PCs are defending a building against enemies?
But let's focus on doors. The PCs are on one side, on the other side are enemies, who may or may not have heard the PCs. PC1 wants to open the door, and PC2-4 want to ready actions. This seems like a reasonable desire to me; we see it in movies all the time with SWAT teams moving into rooms like a well-oiled unit. Of course, on the other side of the door may be enemies, who may have heard the PCs, and want to ready actions against the PCs.
Do you forbid the PCs from readying? Do you forbid the enemies from readying? I say you should be symmetrical in your ruling; if the PCs can't see the enemies and therefore not ready, then the same should apply to the NPCs.
If you don't roll initiative until the door is opened, then you get a weird situation; lots of flat-footed people who are totally expecting combat. On the other hand, if you allow readied actions, you might get a big stack of ready actions that you need to carefully untangle.
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The "ready before combat" problem is persistent and tricky.
It's common sense for people to want to ready before combat, and you'll find NPCs doing it in scenarios now and then I'm sure. So there ought to be something like that for PCs.
On the other hand, it could indeed easily be abused; if everyone starts with readied actions, that would take a lot of the excitement out of an opening round of combat because the initiative order is already half-established and the PCs mercilessly take advantage of flat-footed opponents. When PCs do this thing properly, it's usually more powerful than when a few scripted peons in a scenario do it poorly.
There's a major difference between PC's and NPC's due to circumstances.
PC's are generally exploring unknown terrain, or a foreign complex of which they have little to know knowledge of. NPC's on the other hand are set... either they are in hiding set up for ambush if they're highwaymen, or they've been triggered by perceiving sounds of combat in a room several spaces over or the floor below so they have prior warning of incoming PC's so they've got the opportunity to prepare for ccompany. NPC's have a home field advantage, and they should be making full use of that fact.
I don't think that's a really good basis for decision. What if the PCs have more home advantage than the NPCs? For example, if the PCs are defending a building against enemies?
But let's focus on doors. The PCs are on one side, on the other side are enemies, who may or may not have heard the PCs. PC1 wants to open the door, and PC2-4 want to ready actions. This seems like a reasonable desire to me; we see it in movies all the time with SWAT teams moving into rooms like a well-oiled unit. Of course, on the other side of the door may be enemies, who may have heard the PCs, and want to ready actions against the PCs.
Do you forbid the PCs from readying? Do you forbid the enemies from readying? I say you should be symmetrical in your...
Either allow PCs/NPCs to target squares that they think exist or they wait for initiative. Effectively, what you say with this method is "Sure, you can shoot as soon as the door opens, but if you want to take the time to see where the threats happen to be, that's initiative."
This is the distinction that makes "no readied actions out of combat" make sense. It takes time to react to threats. You know of a general threat (you know there are dudes), but not the specific one until the door is opened (where the dudes are precisely located). Said readied action then uses the same miss rules as "averting your eyes" because you're essentially firing blind: you didn't take the time to reposition your aim to the targets once they were visible.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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It's entirely possible the PCs know exactly where enemies will be; for example because of Gloves of Resonnaissance. So the "no home advantage" argument can't be used all the time.
I think a more or less normal combat round with initiative is a better way to handle things. Even if you intellectually know where enemies are likely to be, knowing is one thing, seeing and targeting is different. The game clearly distinguishes between pinpointing an enemy and actually observing it. You still have to focus your eyes on things and such; and the other guy might be faster than you.
However, if you start a normal combat round, whoever wins initiative has a gross advantage; a full turn in which to exploit flat-footedness. So here's a sort of compromise;
* Door opened by PC. Everyone rolls initiative.
* First round is either a true or a pseudo surprise round. Enemies that had no idea the PCs were coming can't act. Everyone else only gets a Standard action. Even if nobody's truly surprised, still only a Standard action. The PC who opened the door rolls initiative just like anyone else; and if he's fast he might just shut the door before any enemies get through. Everyone is flat-footed until they've had their first action moment.
Notice that the door-opener also rolls initiative. Often the person who initiates combat is placed automatically first or last in initiative. That would make closing the door in time either too easy or too hard. Even worse is when initiative starts at the door-guy's count; that means that other people who actually did better at initiative go later, which defeats the point of being good at initiative.
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Fortunately, the rules section of the CRB gives some hints about this.
You can find it in the skill sections under perception and under surprise round.
Many scenarios have clear write ups on how to proceed and what will trigger what. Others don´t. They have NPC´s with statblocks though and it´s perfectly fine to assume they use their stats, especially perception.
So, if a barbarian comes breaking down the front door and slashing the guards there while raging, complemented by a fireball slinging sorcerer, the lord of the house back in the lounge will surely get a perception check, modified by the music his slaves are playing, the thickness of the walls and doors, the space between the two places and wether he is sleeping or not.
PC´s are always free to prevent that by successfully using their stealth skills. Doing so, they might really be in for a surprise round, even though they were expected perhaps! Invisibility could also helpa lot there.
As for doors in combat, there is a nice rule for partial cover, which PCs and NPCs might both use. That´s not even a special creative solution.
Since Pathfinder has no "face direction" rules, encounters (not necessarily combat) start on sight, what translates mostly to direct line of sight, which also breaks stealth*.
*Eventually modified by the latest stealth blog post.
Other than what many people think about it, playing stealthy characters or even a rogue can hold many advantages, when you know what you are doing.
That might require reading the core rulebook, especially the skill and environment and other rules sections^^
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Doors are always wide open. They're almost never partially open (other than possibly noted in opening box text), where a character could go behind the door that opened inward into a room partway and be in the square adjacent to the doorway with cover towards the direction of the open doorway.
I don't know about anyone else, but if you are in the square adjacent to the one in front of the door, I count that as a hard corner that grants cover. Although that has less to do with the door and more with the wall I guess.
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Other than what many people think about it, playing stealthy characters or even a rogue *gasp* can hold many advantages, when you know what you are doing.
That attitude is half the problem. Putting the blame on the players for playing poorly and doin it wrong when it doesn't work is a complete canard when the rules are murky enough to make it DM fiat, and the default DM position seems to be the players will be surprised all the time and the monsters will be surprised never.
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You can always ready an action out of combat at my table. You just still have to take it in initiative order, be it in a surprise round or not.
The real problem is, if you ready an action you can't change it when your turn comes up. So if the enemy wins initiative on you and gets in your face, you still have to cast that spell.
You can do so defensively of course. I'm not a monster or anything.
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You can always ready an action out of combat at my table. You just still have to take it in initiative order, be it in a surprise round or not.
The real problem is, if you ready an action you can't change it when your turn comes up. So if the enemy wins initiative on you and gets in your face, you still have to cast that spell.
You can do so defensively of course. I'm not a monster or anything.
*headscratch* Thats not a readied action. The entire point of a readied action is that it doesn't obey the regular rules of initiative.
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Seriously though, this conversation is giving me some insight into how to handle the surprise round when everyone is waiting on character X. It now seems obvious that I should have X roll initiative normally, then assume everyone else delayed until right after X, ordering them in sequence according to their rolls on the same count (but immediately after) X. For some reason I've struggled with that in the past. So thanks for getting me to think about this. :-)
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*headscratch* Thats not a readied action.Well, that's one way to look at it.
You're not allowing readied actions. You shouldn't say you can ready an action and then not actually give them a readied action. Readied actions can be used outside of the inititive order. What you're giving people can't be, so its NOT a readied action any way you look at it.
Telling your players you can ready an action but you get all the downsides and none of the benefits is like telling them they can have an anchovie pizza and then handing them a tin of anchovies.
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Readied actions outside of combat:
There's nothing stopping the GM from saying the NPCs (or PCs, for that matter) are "in combat" even though there's not yet any opposition.
It's not an alien concept. Actions can (and IMO, should) be done "in combat" when they are time critical, like fighting fires or seeing if you win the race in stabilizing your buddy before he dies.
So, along those lines, if someone opens a door, there's no reason to say the people (again, NPC or PC) on the other side can't have readied actions all set to go. Those people behind the door were already in combat, and they were simply delaying/readying until the door openers joined that combat.
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No place I can find, apparently. I'll look further after work, but for the time being I must withdraw my statement.Where?Re: Readying out of combat.
Yes, it is explicitly disallowed by the rules.
It was already explained above. Bolded for emphasis.
Oh, and for those who say there isn't a rule about this:
1) There isn't a rule that specifically says you can't ready outside of combat.
2) There doesn't need to be for this to be the rule.
3) Readying is a special initiative action.
4) If you are not in initiative, you cannot take an initiative action.
So it comes down to whether or not you believe you "can be in combat" while "you're not actually in combat".