Mindless mounts

[Cronax]

So I'm running a darksun conversion, a setting where riding around on Vermin is fairly commonplace.

Being mindless, they can't actually be combat trained (correct me if this assumption is incorrect). But by the same token, I would think being mindless also makes them immune to being Frightened in battle.

I'm fine fudging things to make the game go, but am curious how RAW should actually apply to this situation.

[That Crazy Alchemist]

Are they specific vermin? Like Riding Centipedes or something? If they are they might have a special feature listed in their abilities that allows them to be trained. Also check through the Dark Sun books, there might be some kind of "vermin handler" feat or class ability. Otherwise no, you are correct you can't actually combat train a vermin, or train it at all for that matter normally.

EDIT: Though you could "Push" it I suppose, but that might be a bit annoying.

EDIT EDIT: Ignore that, Handle Animal only works on Animals not vermin so they could not even be pushed.

[Lifat]

That Crazy Alchemist is correct as far as I know. If you want this to work then you have to homebrew the mounts and/or homerule some monsters/rules.

[claudekennilol]

Referencing the Vermin Hunter archetype from the Advanced Class Guide may be helpful. Part of their class specifically allows them to train them and push them.

[Cyrus Lanthier]

Yes- strangely a mindless creature can't be manipulated with handle animal despite the fact that it's presumably just responding to stimuli directly. I guess Knowledge: Nature might work- if you had special tools you could effectively continually be "tricking" it into doing exactly what you want. Since it's mindless, it will never realize that it can't ever catch the carrot dangling from the stick (or whatever).

Also, That Crazy Alchemist; you can use handle animal (at penalties) on anything with an Int of 1 or 2. Big dumb magical beasts, allies (or enemies!) who took tons of Int damage (or got hit with feeblemind), etc. But yea, it doesn't work on Vermin because they are mindless.

Edit: Unless you are a Vermin Hunter, I guess. :p

[Cronax]

Yes, I know about the Verminous Hunter. My real conundrum is what happens when an non combat trained vermin mount gets into a battle. Is it frightened like a normal untrained animal? (I don't think so) Can you use the 'Fight with a combat-trained mount' action from the ride skill? (my gut says no, but I'm looking for more concrete rules to go off of)