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All,
I am an experienced DM but I could really use some advice on how to deal with an issue. A group has asked me to consider DM'ing a homebrew PF campaign, but they like high magic, high powered campaigns (very high stats, items, etc.) They are veterans of 3.5 and want to relive those days as well. That includes ways to break the crafting system.
I've been told they want to do things like stacking +AC items of insight, luck, sacred, deflection, natural, etc to get up to ridiculous AC. I would have no problem with these things if it wasn't for the fact that Paizo got rid of body slot shenanigans by aligning all of the (even more slots than we used to have) into single slots and charging markups for stacking effects.
Has anyone here dealt with someone trying to revive broken portions of 3.5 crafting? What PF rules/resources are available for me to challenge this practice beyond simple DM fiat?
Thus far, I'm considering making items double cost if they are different slot than typically aligned. I'm looking for any advice to add sanity to this in a campaign that will already a bit overpowered making encounter building difficult to balance.
Aligned slots aren't exactly gone; they're simply left to GM discretion with some guidelines:
Altering Existing Items
The Core Rulebook doesn't allow item creation feats to alter the physical nature of an item, its default size, its shape, or its magical properties. For example, there is no mechanism for using crafting feats to change a steel +1 longsword into an adamantine +1 longsword, a Large +1 chain shirt into a Medium +1 chain shirt, boots of speed into an amulet of speed, or a +1 unholy longsword into a +1 flaming shock longsword. Many GMs might decide that these kinds of transformations are impossible, beyond the scope of mortals, or not as cost-efficient as crafting a new item from scratch. Others might allow these sorts of transformations for free or a small surcharge. Keep in mind the following warnings.
Not All Item Slots Have Equal Value: This is true, even though it isn't expressed monetarily in the rules. Some item slots are very common and are shared by many useful items (boots, belts, rings, and amulets in particular), while some slots are used by only a few items (such as body, chest, and eyes). Allowing a character to alter or craft an item for one of these underused slots is allowing the character to bypass built-in choices between popular items.
Some Abilities Are Assigned to Certain Slots: Some of the magic items in the Core Rulebook are deliberately assigned to specific magic item slots for balance purposes, so that you have to make hard choices about what items to wear. In particular, the magic belts and circlets that give enhancement bonuses to ability scores are in this category—characters who want to enhance multiple physical or mental ability scores must pay extra for combination items like a belt of physical might or headband of mental prowess.
If there is a trend of all Core Rulebook items of a particular type using a particular slot (such as items that grant physical ability score bonuses being belts or items that grant movement bonuses being boots), GMs should be hesitant to allow you to move those abilities to other slots; otherwise, they ignore these deliberate restrictions by cheaply spreading out these items over unused slots.
Classes Value Some Slots More Than Others: This is a combination of the two previous warnings. Because most belts enhance physical abilities, wizards rarely have need for standard belt items. This means a wizard can change an item that's useful to wizards into a belt and not have to worry about a future slot conflict by discovering a wizardly magic belt in a treasure hoard. Likewise, fighters have little use for most standard head items, so altering an existing fighter item to use the head slot means it has little risk of competition from found head slot items. GMs should consider carefully before allowing you to bypass these intentional, built-in item slot restrictions.
Respect Each Crafting Feat's Niche: You might be tempted to create rings that have charges like wands, or bracers with multiple charge-based effects like staves. A GM allowing this makes Craft Wondrous Item and Forge Ring even more versatile and powerful, and devalues Craft Staff and Craft Wand because those two feats can create only charged items.
Before allowing such an item, consider whether the reverse idea would be appropriate—if someone with Craft Wand can't make a wand of protection +1 that grants a deflection bonus like a ring of protection +1, and if someone with Craft Staff can't make a handy haverstaff that stores items like a handy haversack, then Craft Wondrous Item and Forge Ring shouldn't be able to poach item types from the other feats.
GMs who wish to allow some of these sorts of alterations should consider using the original item as a talismanic component for the final item (see page 173).
The quoted text applies to altering existing items to change their slot, but the reasoning applies equally to designing custom magic items.
Regarding making, e.g., a single magic item that provides +1 insight to AC, +1 luck to AC, +1 sacred to AC, and so on: Just don't allow it. Make them use different slots at the very least. But note that they can still get some pretty ridiculous AC already using non-custom items; they just have to pay an appropriate amount for them.
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Thank you, that is helpful. Any other advice or design quotes from the developers on this balance issue would be appreciated. At this point, I'm likely to just go with what feels right to me and if the players can't accept it we won't play. PF is a different game than 3.5 and I'm not going to break PF for the sake of nostalgia. There is plenty of opportunity to break PF as it is.
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According to fabricate you'd need to have base materials to make the item. You'd have to have a load of adamantine in order to fabricate the full plate. So you aren't just paying a craft cost of 1/3 there.
However, I do think there are a few instances it's probably going to be used for cash flow. I'm going to specifically ban cash flow crafting unless a profession check is used. That's why we have craft/profession. Making money buying material, crafting, and selling crap is not why I DM for people. Go play EVE or something is what I'd tell them.
All,
I am an experienced DM but I could really use some advice on how to deal with an issue. A group has asked me to consider DM'ing a homebrew PF campaign, but they like high magic, high powered campaigns (very high stats, items, etc.) They are veterans of 3.5 and want to relive those days as well. That includes ways to break the crafting system.
I've been told they want to do things like stacking +AC items of insight, luck, sacred, deflection, natural, etc to get up to ridiculous AC. I would have no problem with these things if it wasn't for the fact that Paizo got rid of body slot shenanigans by aligning all of the (even more slots than we used to have) into single slots and charging markups for stacking effects.
Has anyone here dealt with someone trying to revive broken portions of 3.5 crafting? What PF rules/resources are available for me to challenge this practice beyond simple DM fiat?
Thus far, I'm considering making items double cost if they are different slot than typically aligned. I'm looking for any advice to add sanity to this in a campaign that will already a bit overpowered making encounter building difficult to balance.
3.5 has the same markup as PF for magic item stacking.
As GM, you have absolute control of what they make. Use it.
Demand spells that give the bonus type be used in order to make an item with that type. Enforce the level >= 3*AC bonus, but after all types are stacked. They can save money, but still need level to make the uber protection armor.
High magic campaign means mage's disjunction is in play. Read up on critical fail on saving throws. In PF this gives a chance to break magic items. High stats mean they face bigger enemies. Sunder can be a viable option, especially if they go in against an enemy known for sundering. High magic also means area of magical negation or suppression. Dispel can temporarily disable magic items. Imagine a +10 armor rendered +0 for 1d4 rounds. Instant vulnerability. Then there are Brilliant weapons for bypassing that +10 armor.
/cevah