Limits on magic item combining?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I've read the combining rules for PF and understand that it's 1.5x the price for combining items and 2x the price for slotless items. It's a bit different from 3.5, but mostly the same.

Are there any limits to this at all?

Based on the wording on altering existing magic items there is a clear purposeful balance on magic item slots:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Altering-Existing-Items wrote:
Allowing a character to alter or craft an item for one of these underused slots is allowing the character to bypass built-in choices between popular items.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Altering-Existing-Items wrote:
Some of the magic items in the standard rules are deliberately assigned to specific magic item slots for balance purposes, so that you have to make hard choices about what items to wear.

I find situations like this entirely possible:

Ninjaxenomorph wrote:
As long as someone is crafting, you don't have to worry about only having 2 ring slots. You can combine a Ring of Sustenance and Regeneration to be the most awesome survival item ever, and still have a ring slot open. You could make add a Phylactery of Channeling to your mental headband. You could add they tiny rings onto each other (Feather Falling, Counter-Spelling, Protection, skill enchancements, etc), and make an awesome ring of power

In a 3.5 game I also had several boots combined (quicksilver, anklet of translocation, etc) which let me move around with little problem. It was a bit OP imo.

Now these situations are usually limited by cost and time. Unfortunately time doesn't matter in our case as we're playing Kingmaker where there are basically no time restrictions. The cost factor is lessened significantly as a PC has all the crafting feats due to a homebrew artificer so the feat investment is minimal (as it also has really really good casting).

I would be more comfortable allowing combinations to cap at 2 items combined per slot and preventing slotted items to be made slotless except in rare cases. This doesn't please my player.

Big 6 items like Cloak of Resistance shouldn't could toward the limit imo(though stat belts/head pieces probably should? *shrug*)

How have you handled this? Any rules or suggestions would be appreciated.


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I've found cost to be very effective as a limiter. Most players I know would not like to halve their wealth allotment just to remove slot restrictions from the game.

In other words, if they want to blow all their funds making the One Ring, I'm fine with it. If I'm playing in a game where the GM disallows combining items completely, I'm fine with that too, but it excludes large swaths of interesting items if the players feel the need to stick to the Big Six.


I agree on big 6 items like Cloak of Resistance (Added a note on that). I have no problem with combining good items with mundane math items like cloak of res.

The Half wealth argument breaks down due to crafting and low cost items. You can effectively have +2 to all skills for VERY minimal extra costs for instance. (400*1.5 = 600/2= 300 each additional +2 skill item)


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As written there's absolutely no limitations on combining (besides the usual DM fiat). Pathfinder also did away with the silly affinity rules. As pointed out though, money is a heck of a limiter. Especially with some of the really freaking expensive things out there. Mostly what I've found combining items to be used for is to slap something cheap (hello Feather Step Slippers/Boots of the Cat) onto what you actually want/need to keep up. This gives you the flavorful/useful ability you want along with whatever +X item you need to keep up. I absolutely agree, cloak of resistance + some other cloak probably shouldn't increase the cost of either, same with the belts (ultimate equipment did quite a few examples).


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Mostly what I've found combining items to be used for is to slap something cheap (hello Feather Step Slippers/Boots of the Cat) onto what you actually want/need to keep up. This gives you the flavorful/useful ability you want along with whatever +X item you need to keep up. I absolutely agree, cloak of resistance + some other cloak probably shouldn't increase the cost of either, same with the belts (ultimate equipment did quite a few examples).

I agree these are legit cases. My concern is stacking lots of skill bonuses and maybe other low cost things.


blahpers wrote:

I've found cost to be very effective as a limiter. Most players I know would not like to halve their wealth allotment just to remove slot restrictions from the game.

In other words, if they want to blow all their funds making the One Ring, I'm fine with it. If I'm playing in a game where the GM disallows combining items completely, I'm fine with that too, but it excludes large swaths of interesting items if the players feel the need to stick to the Big Six.

In the OP's case though the character in question is a crafter. He can build it himself at half the cost... so in effect he is getting it for the price a normal purchaser would. Obviously he isn't going to want to do this for all his gear, but certain ones? Yes, cost isn't a huge factor in this case.

As far as I know there are no limits. Crafters have a way of optimizing their gear that is really only counterable by straight up GM fiat.


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Aranna wrote:
Obviously he isn't going to want to do this for all his gear, but certain ones? Yes

Oh you underestimate PCs: Pretty much everything they have is crafted. :P

The problem is I gave a lot of straight gold which I shouldn't have.


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If your worry is +2 skill items, what do you do with masterwork tools? They're 50 gold (unless a different one is printed) and give you +2 to a skill. And if +50% cost is a drop in the bucket, +100% cost isn't much different and would give you a slotless version of the item. In addition to not taking up a slot they'd also be much harder to see/steal and you could just stuff them in a backpack. You could also trade them easier between players. Also most skill bonuses come in multiples of 5.

If your worry is taking a bunch of cheap things and stacking them all together... and? I mean, unless you're giving them free reign on the magic item creation table (never ever do this without at least looking over their shoulder) then they're just picking items that already exist. If the item is too cheap for what it does (hello again Feather Step Slippers/Boots of the Cat!) that's a problem with the item. Unless everyone has a "superpowered item slot" where all the broken items go, they're not exactly breaking the game by taking things that already exist and putting them together. Would "gloves of mighty fists" be any more powerful (slot changing)? Would Feather Step Slippers of the Cat really change much that either one wouldn't individually? Heck, +1 Shadow Slick Jousting armor is already allowed by the rules, and that's just +skill stacking.

Also, if the worst thing your players are doing with item crafting is making a helm of +2 all skills you should count yourself lucky. That's the lowest end of the spectrum. There's the +(1-5) LIDS AC/saves bonus (luck insight deflection sacred). There's command word at-will spell in a can. There's intelligent items you can give SLAs to so they buff you with their actions and you don't have to.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
what do you do with masterwork tools? They're 50 gold (unless a different one is printed) and give you +2 to a skill

Masterwork tools have a set number of skills that they can apply to. I have previously allowed MW tools for those not on the list, but those should probably be magic items from here on out. The bonus is competence so it doesn't stack with magic items - no problems here.

Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Unless everyone has a "superpowered item slot" where all the broken items go, they're not exactly breaking the game by taking things that already exist and putting them together.

Skill items don't exist - though arguably should. They have a standardized pricing.

Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Would "gloves of mighty fists" be any more powerful (slot changing)?

If done for fluff reasons? No. If done for slot reasons? Yes:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Altering-Existing-Items wrote:
Some of the magic items in the standard rules are deliberately assigned to specific magic item slots for balance purposes, so that you have to make hard choices about what items to wear.
Bob Bob Bob wrote:
+1 Shadow Slick Jousting armor is already allowed by the rules, and that's just +skill stacking.

It has 2 skills, sure. There are other items with 2 skills. I've never seen higher.


Update on MW tools per this thread: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ql8z?Masterwork-Tools

They aren't all a flat +2 and shouldn't be a flat +2. They are however a circumstance bonus instead of a competence bonus.

There are many listed here as well: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/books-paper-wr iting-supplies#TOC-Book

I feel weird about the books as well.


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Shadow (stealth) Slick (escape artist) Jousting (ride). Three skills. I'm sure I could hunt down more. Oh, ioun stones. Mossy Disk gets you +5 competence to any specific Knowledge skill. Buy 10 of those for +5 all knowledges. Heck, combining slotless items doesn't increase costs at all so make it one mossy disk with the powers of 10 of them.

Your update on MW tools is for PFS. Since we're talking about item creation, which is already explicitly banned there, I'm not sure what relevance it has to this discussion. And even in the discussion you link someone says what I already did, mw tools are 50 gp unless one already exists, they provide +2 bonus, and that person thinks they should be restricted by either limited uses, have to have it in hand, or it only applies to part of the check. Good thing that last part isn't in the description anywhere at all so all we need is "it's 50 gp unless one exists and it provides a +2 on the relevant skill checks".

It appears you're giving your players free reign on the item creation table and then saying it seems too powerful for you. If it is, don't let them do it. You have to grant them permission to just make up items out of whole cloth, not the other way around. As I said, most +skill items come in increments of 5. The ones I can think of that don't (bracer's of falcon's aim) are because they're based on a spell that grants that number. If this minor +skill item stuff seems off to you, don't allow it and require them to do it in increments of 5 or use pre-existing items. I'm pretty sure I can track down items of +5 skill for almost every skill check. I can certainly do it for the big ones, knowledge and perception.


If you find any specific item a problem, just don't allow it.

If you want more general rules that can provide a limitation, you could require research time and gold for any custom magic item, this would slow it down.

You could increase the DC to craft by 5 for any added effect/each combined magic item. This would make combining a couple cheap things pretty easy still in most cases, but adding a dozen things to a single ring would be impossible for all but the most skilled crafters.

In general, I haven't had any problems with this. But I do limit custom skill boost items to +2.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
so all we need is "it's 50 gp unless one exists and it provides a +2 on the relevant skill checks".

Actually this is entirely wrong.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/tools-kits#TOC -Tool-Masterwork wrote:
Individual GMs may want to allow masterwork tools for other skills at the listed cost. The circumstance bonus for such a tool should never be more than +2. The tool should either have a limited number of uses (such as the disguise and healer's kits) or only apply to certain aspects of the skill (such as the balancing pole's bonus on Acrobatics checks to traverse a narrow surface or the magnifying glass's bonus on Appraise checks for detailed items

But this is fully covered in that other thread - we shouldn't continue discussing that here.

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