So I was fleshing out character builds to 20 and read 'Holy Champion'. I searched a few threads and did not see a clarification on how the banishment effect removes the smite effect. As a capstone, this is terrible. My original intention was Pal(OoV)20.
Seems like it needs to be dipped away. But with what and when? The OoV build seems to need level 4 as soon as possible. People suggested Oracle for melee builds, but Nature and Lore add nothing I could see to an 18 Dex, 18 Cha Paladin.
Fighter adds a bonus feat.
Keep in mind this is a live character currently sitting at level 3.
Suggestions?
I don't think you're getting anything out of dipping elsewhere. Maybe a Fighter level to help pick up the archery feats more quickly?
At any rate, I don't think dipping just to avoid a capstone you don't like is going to be worth it.
Some ideas off the top of my head:
Monk (Zen Archer Archetype): Use Flurry of Blows with your bow, which starts out equivalent to Rapid Shot and eventually becomes better than Rapid Shot + Manyshot. So it saves you two feats, in addition to granting you a bonus feat (presumably you already have Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, so you'll end up taking Combat Reflexes for the Snap Shot goodness later). It also lets you use Perfect Strike with a bow a few times per day. The big downside is that the loss of one BAB, while it doesn't affect your attack bonuses with Flurry, will delay many feats with BAB requirements.
Slayer (Sniper Archetype): Grants Studied Target (+1) and halves range increment penalties with a bow, crossbow, or firearm. Pretty good, especially combined with Far Shot and maybe a Distance weapon (though I think that's overkill, I'd rather get +1, Adaptive, and Seeking and go for straight +1's afterwards).
Edit:
As far as creating the most effective Paladin in a game going all the way to 20, never mind the capstone, get Sacred Servant and ask your DM if you can stack it with Oath of Vengeance. If you can't stack them, just take Sacred Servant.
I don't think you're getting anything out of dipping elsewhere. Maybe a Fighter level to help pick up the archery feats more quickly?
At any rate, I don't think dipping just to avoid a capstone you don't like is going to be worth it.
The capstone causes Smite Evil to terminate after the first successful hit on an outsider, regardless of if you banish. Paladins DPS via smite damage. Losing the Smite in the middle of a full round attack at level 20 is devastating.
Am I misreading this? I could see an alternate interpretation of the ability reading essentially "take all shots, tally damage, then lose smite." That's far less bad.
So I was fleshing out character builds to 20 and read 'Holy Champion'. I searched a few threads and did not see a clarification on how the banishment effect removes the smite effect. As a capstone, this is terrible. My original intention was Pal(OoV)20.
Seems like it needs to be dipped away. But with what and when? The OoV build seems to need level 4 as soon as possible. People suggested Oracle for melee builds, but Nature and Lore add nothing I could see to an 18 Dex, 18 Cha Paladin.
Fighter adds a bonus feat.
Keep in mind this is a live character currently sitting at level 3.
Suggestions?
Are you really going to play to level 20? (The vast majority of games stop before level 12, let alone 20). If not then don't dip since you are likely to loose more than you gain.
Oh and divine hunter past level 2 is a trap.
Are you really going to play to level 20? (The vast majority of games stop before level 12, let alone 20). If not then don't dip since you are likely to loose more than you gain.
Oh and divine hunter past level 2 is a trap.
Hoping to. I probably have about 3 years real time before this is a problem, but I'm interested now.
Yeah I didn't care for divine hunter.
One level dip in swashbuckler has some potential if you want a little bit of switch hitting on the side. Deeds and panache synergize well with your excellent charisma and swashbuckler finesse combined with Dervish Dance would make you decent at melee as well as archery.
That said, paladins tend to be feat-starved and archery is fairly feat-intensive. For a pure archer I'd probably pick a class that offers bonus feats. One level in Lore Warden or Mutation Warrior maybe?
Swashbuckler would also allow you to Parry - Either wear a Spiked Gauntlet, or if you get Snap Shot, Parry and Riposte with your bow. There is nothing in that Deed restricting you to using a melee weapon. You'll have enough Charisma for a decent starting Panache pool but it won't be something you use on every attack. It will be invaluable against nasty touch spells and grab attacks - Especially when flat-footed (assuming that if you took Snap Shot, you also took Combat Reflexes).
Athaleon, that's a hilarious suggestion.
Swash is actually pretty sweet. The limited finesse is concerning.
I'm tempted to take two in Mutation warrior at 5 and 6, which brings the full archer package online 3 levels early with superior damage from DA and RS/MS.
From a DPS standpoint, the DA alone totally outweighs the loss of two levels of paladin.
From a utility standpoint, the loss of pacing on lay on hands can't really be overcome, shifting it almost exclusively into a sink for smite. As well, the immunities and damage transfer effects come online quite late.
Is it better for survival to arch much harder earlier, or quicken the pace to Paladin side-benefits? The last 3.x character I built was a 1-11 wizard and they play totally differently. Our party has a ton of utility with a Cleric, Druid and Master Summoner.
Magic items like Bracers of the Merciful Knight can offset the loss of Lay on Hands scaling.
I forgot about Mutation Warrior. That would be an excellent dip for one or two levels, especially if you can fluff it as some sort of righteous fury or combat trance.
We also have a crazy alchemist in the party. Maybe he's rubbing off.
OOV is super overrated. Divine Hunter gives you everything that you want for an Archer and gets rid of things you don't care about.
OOV is super overrated. Divine Hunter gives you everything that you want for an Archer and gets rid of things you don't care about.
I feel this is bad advice. You give up way too much as divine hunter.
Yeah... The Divine Hunter is losing some awesome defensive abilities in exchange for a few team boosts that likely will do jack squat for your team. If you're playing with a fixed group it is very unlikely that there will be more than one archer on the squad.
It's too late to be a Divine Hunter and I wouldn't build one anyway. They aren't very good, except for the feat acceleration.