Looking for a rules citation here. Had a ghoul fight, and it'll be re-run tomorrow night.
Going paralyzed confers helpless condition -- but you are held "rigid" and do not slump to the ground, even with your 0 strength. So a paralyzed person is standing in the square, and counts as difficult terrain (essentially). That much is by the rules which I understand. HOWEVER, if a fellow PC enters the paralyzed person's square and attacks the ghoul, is the PC at -4 for squeezing? Do they get shunted to an adjacent square if they end their turn occupying the paralyzed person's space?
Keep in mind, the paralyzed person isn't prone. Helpless & paralyzed conditions do not appear to remove the rules about standing in someone else's square. However, I am sure I don't understand all the rules, so I'd love to see your citations or rulings. I'll help with links to the rules I found, at least:
SQUEEZING: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Squeezing
PARALYZED: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Paralyzed
HELPLESS: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Helpless
PRD wrote: Opponent: You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.
Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.
The rules only say they paralyzed creature counts as two squares for movement. In that sense it trumps the general rules for being helpless, but as for occupying the same square there are no rules that say paralysis gives any additional penalties, that I could find.
Basically you normally are not allowed to occupy the same square but since a paralyzed person is helpless then you can do it.
They're still squeezing; it's an occupied square. If the helpless character was on the ground, I'd say that's a different story. Once the character isn't paralysed anymore, the not-helpless one gets shunted.
Quote: as for occupying the same square there are no rules that say paralysis gives any additional penalties, that I could find. Yeah, you're right that paralysis rules don't talk about squeezing, but the squeezing rules that I provided a URL for in my original post DO say that being in an ally's square invokes squeezing rules (maybe not, see followup post). So I'm not looking for paralysis rules to say "there IS squeezing." Instead, the opposite: I'm looking for paralysis or helpless rules which state "the squeezing condition that normally applies to allies in the same square is now relieved."
I'm coming at it from the idea that squeezing still applies until a condition says otherwise. So far I haven't seen that yet, but I hope to...?
Actually, I'm re-reading the squeezing rules right now, and it doesn't actually SAY that 2 medium-sized characters in a single 5' square is squeezing. It just says narrow spaces (such as a 2.5' square for a medium person) cause squeezing. It does also say this:
Quote: You can squeeze past a creature while moving ...but no real info on when that applies (do you have squeezing rules if you move past a tiny squirrel?), and then this other rule conflicts with that:
Quote: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. No restrictions mentioned about squeezing.
It's starting to look, to me, like you can invoke the "move through friends" rule and the "it's OK to occupy squares of helpless people" rules, and essentially there is no drawback or limitation to moving through a few paralyzed allies and swinging at a ghoul.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
If the ally is helpless, you can move through/within their square without penalty. Unless, for some reason, a helpless ally is more of a burden on space than is a helpless enemy.
Could be more of a burden -- you don't want to move so freely that you knock them over or cause them damage, which is something that one wouldn't care about when considering an enemy.
However, I'm thinking you're right. I'm reading more and it looks like movement is unrestricted due to the helpless condition. It just isn't mentioned under the helpless condition. I had to go to the combat section and look at movement to see this, mostly thanks to looking up wraithstrike's quotes.
Avatar-1 wrote: They're still squeezing; it's an occupied square. If the helpless character was on the ground, I'd say that's a different story. Once the character isn't paralysed anymore, the not-helpless one gets shunted. Being prone vs not being prone is not a factor on whether or not you occupy the square. With that said the rules don't cover what happens when the condition is removed. In game I have played in, if someone was prone and helpless they could not stand up until the other person left the square. As for both of them standing, it has never happened.
aboyd wrote: Actually, I'm re-reading the squeezing rules right now, and it doesn't actually SAY that 2 medium-sized characters in a single 5' square is squeezing. Quote: You can squeeze past a creature while moving That is referring to when you are already squeezing. As an example a large creature can move past a medium sized creature occupying a 5 foot square in a hallway that is 5 feet wide.
The rule is not implying that moving through someone's square automatically causes squeezing.
.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Yeah, I think you're right wraithstrike. In any case, since they didn't really explain that line of text very much, and since the rules on movement provide something that seems to be a trump card for how to move with paralyzed/helpless allies, I'm going to ignore the squeezing text (or more accurately, allow the movement text to trump it).
Tomorrow when they're all paralyzed and only 1 or 2 allies can save them, those allies will be able to freely move among their frozen friends and swing wildly without penalty.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
