After looking at the Brew Master class. I was reminded of the dwarves and minions from the overlord series and how alcohol made them stronger and tougher. Suddenly the urge to create an Overlord class was strong in me.
I was hoping, not for mechanical help, but for
1. Thematic help of abilities
2. A list of D&D/pathfinder basics such as full bab 1/2 bab, and other things like that.
I'm sure there's more I could use help with, but seeing as of now I'm not sure if this would be a prestige class or a base, I can't think of what else to include without those basics.
My initial thought when it comes to this is summoning 1d4+Charisma Modifier twice a day to a maximum of 10. I may drop the d4 for two or three levels, eventually raising the die itself, the number of times it can be used a day, and the amount of minions one can have under it's thrall, I'm also thinking that I will place at various levels creature templates that the minions will get.
I am working on overlord class for some time now.
I used high BAB, 1d10 HD, and given him summon minion ability working like summoner's summon monster (3+Cha mod per day, used as a standard action, lasts 1 minute/level) but uses minions (on which I am working and they are real pain to design to be viable) instead of regular summons and the summoned creatures come out of special portal that overlord can place near to him (instead of spawning in plot-sriven locations).
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Unless the minions are absolute drek, he shouldn't have high BAB & d10 HD. (unless you're intending it to be an OP class)
I think basing it on the summoner is the way to go, only instead of one good summon he has lots of little ones.
However, since lots of little summons would slow your game to a crawl - see if you can tweak the 4th ed minion rules for your summons.
Both are good thoughts, kazaan, and the first time I'd thought it through I had intended to do just that. I hadn't considered the difficulty of running such a mass. I'd like to find a balance between The easy use of a horde, and the ability to use single minions for various tasks. I had thought about the ability to sacrifice minions for a health boost, what do you think, a die roll, or perhaps a limited time fast healing?
On a side note, while I understand the d10 full attack bonus thing, I am TRYING to create a balanced class, not just making a port of the game. The difficulty of that is why i look at the possibility this might get scrapped and rebuilt as a PrC.
Now as to the core mechanics of all PCs, does anybody have a list of CMD CMB, attack bonus progression, so on and so on, you know, the core basics?
If not I guess I'll end up with another project.
My youngest likes to pretend she's a princess. Usually a vampire princess or demon princess, but still. She used to try to draw me into her games by calling me king. I had to put a stop to that, and now per my request she refers to me as tyrant overlord Ciaran, which is a much better fit than King Ciaran. So, if you want to make a class based on me, I encourage that.
;)
My youngest likes to pretend she's a princess. Usually a vampire princess or demon princess, but still. She used to try to draw me into her games by calling me king. I had to put a stop to that, and now per my request she refers to me as tyrant overlord Ciaran, which is a much better fit than King Ciaran. So, if you want to make a class based on me, I encourage that.
;)
That seems a bit of trolling for this thread, funny trolling though
I am working on overlord class for some time now.
I used high BAB, 1d10 HD, and given him summon minion ability working like summoner's summon monster (3+Cha mod per day, used as a standard action, lasts 1 minute/level) but uses minions (on which I am working and they are real pain to design to be viable) instead of regular summons and the summoned creatures come out of special portal that overlord can place near to him (instead of spawning in plot-sriven locations).
I've removed the portals altogether, they were a necessary part of the game for puzzle mechanics at times, in a pen and paper RPG setting they're unnecessarily cumbersome. I'm just gonna call it a full round action to summon the horde and call it.
and while I understand the martial bent you seem to have set yourself on, from a design perspective that's probably too much, I'm thinking d8 or d6 myself, with similar proficiencies to the fighter.
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I hadn't considered the difficulty of running such a mass. I'd like to find a balance between The easy use of a horde, and the ability to use single minions for various tasks.
Hence my suggestion of tweaking the 4th ed minion rules. Basically each minion has only 1hp but takes no damage instead of partial (evasion for everything) and deals a set amount of damage. (4 instead of d8 for example) A few other things.
The minion rules were designed to streamline it so that a DM could viably have the group fight a group of 20 goblins etc without slowing the game to a crawl. (not that I think your class should be able to get 20 minions at a time - perhaps 4-5 max)
I'm not overly familiar with the minion rules, but they do look like something I should look at for this,
As to Kazaan. I agree with your breakdown of the Overlord, but we've already seen that one was quite a bit better a wizard than the other two, and while they fit that mold you dissected, I want it to be a fun class, I'd like to let the players have more decision than that, so I was thinking the full gamut of armor options as well as proficiences up to and including martial weapons with no shield. as for magic I'm thinking of line or targeted spells, plus possibly some buffs.
Initially I WAS thinking just the browns, but the greens are also a good choice, reds seem like too much to me, and blues, Well i was just going to say no, but what if they acted as a fast healing mechanism for the horde? It keeps me from having to go to deep and ending up with a bunch of free resurrectionists for the overlord, but allows them to fulfill their main game purpose.
What would you guys think of a choose the base form of your minion mechanic?
And seriously, does anybody know where I can find a guide the minutiae that all classes are built on?
Alright, how about for a basis, we start with them being 1 hd creatures with 3 points for a brown, 2 for green 1 for reds and blues, this is of course dependent entirely upon me including them. From there we go into horde statistics, with each one providing a bonus to hit points via the horde's constitution.
That seems a bit of trolling for this thread, funny trolling though
Thats one thing I've never been accused of.
You're asking someone to help you with a list of core mechanics. There isn't one. Look at existing classes and you'll see that they follow equations and standard practices.
Wizard has 1/2-BAB, cleric has 3/4-BAB, fighter has full-BAB. BAB determines hit die: d6, d8, or d10.
Look at any class aside from monk and you'll see good and bad saving throws side by side.
Skill points are always even numbers between 2 and 8. Generally, a class should have at least twice as many class skills as it has skill points. Maybe three times as many.
Proficiencies and other class features are a mix of mechanics and thematics. That's where is starts to get tough. If you are looking t make a class that summons creatures, I suggest you look pat the Summoner. You don't need to copy it, but you might get some ideas.
those saving throws and base attack bonuses are exactly the kind of thing I mean, while they differ from class to class, good is still good, 12 is still half, I wanted the progressions for those. That said, I've decided to stop thinking about the class for now and focus on the mechanics of the horde instead.
Quick and dirty rules so far, each minion type can grant 2 bonuses, you get a plus 1 for each 3 of that type in your horde, minimum +1 provided that type is represented in the horde, the bomuses as I've decided at this time are
Browns +1 attack +1 natural armor, if the natural armor doesn't work out, it may turn into a +1 damage or a an upped damage die.
Greens. +1 fortitude bonus against poisons and disease +1d6 sneak attack damage
Reds. +1 Fire resistance. +1d6 ranged fire damage.
Blues +1 fast healing. (probably altered so it's not always on) converts +1 damage per turn into magical.
A horde must be made of at least five members,
Hordes gain concealment at 20% which area of effect ignores. Hp of the horde 2 points per minion.
What do you think? The minion specifics can be done later.
After looking at the Brew Master class. I was reminded of the dwarves and minions from the overlord series and how alcohol made them stronger and tougher. Suddenly the urge to create an Overlord class was strong in me.
I was hoping, not for mechanical help, but for
1. Thematic help of abilities
2. A list of D&D/pathfinder basics such as full bab 1/2 bab, and other things like that.I'm sure there's more I could use help with, but seeing as of now I'm not sure if this would be a prestige class or a base, I can't think of what else to include without those basics.
My initial thought when it comes to this is summoning 1d4+Charisma Modifier twice a day to a maximum of 10. I may drop the d4 for two or three levels, eventually raising the die itself, the number of times it can be used a day, and the amount of minions one can have under it's thrall, I'm also thinking that I will place at various levels creature templates that the minions will get.
I was taking a shot at this kind of. I am going back to the drawing board and changing a lot, though. It is too inelegant as it stands.
This is it though:The Prince/Princess
Thanks for the post, I'll look it over later, and as if things weren't serendipitous enough already, I just got on Steam and saw it was codemasters weekend, codemasters is of course the makers of OVerlord, and you can buy a bundle including overlord, overlord raising hell, and overlord 2 for 5 bucks
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How about all minions use your BAB with your CHA as a bonus. (your force of personality directs them) Use some sort of crown or something as a magic item to magic up their attacks. (unique overlord item)
The minions hit for 3 points of damage at 1st level and an additional point every three levels. (plus bonuses from the crown)
Browns hit for 1 point more (2 at level 11), Greens do +2 (4 at level 11) damage when sneak attacking, reds have a range of 15 ft and deal fire damage, and blues have a faster movement speed and can swim. Each one has 1hp and an AC of 11 (small size) + 1/2 level + CHA. Same saves as the overlord only takes no damage/effect from any partials.
An overlord can have 2 + 1/3 level out at a time, and summon a max per day of 10+level. (summon up to max as a standard action)
As for everything else in the class - just make it a summoner archetype which gives up the eidolon for minions and heavy armor prof (and ability to cast in it).
Good place to start at least
Frankly - in terms of raw combat ability, it's a bit weaker than a normal summoner - but there are 2 reasons for this.
1 - If one of your players is this class and you are forced to nerf partway through the campaign - he'll be grumpy - he'll be happy if you end up buffing it.
2 - One big advantage is just having this many bodies allows you to do things like sending a couple minions over to do X while the rest of them fight. X could be cutting the rope bridge or whatever. Though I could see an argument that all of the minions have to do the same thing at a time (1 command for all).
Is this a suggestion for the horde or the individual minions? I have to question your math. If I'm reading it right at 18th level an Overlord could summon 8 minions at most. I don't have a problem with this especially but if you can have a max of 8 your max per day of 28 at 18.
1. True, 2. I could understand this, but, no that won't be the case, I intend this to be played tactically, though I may have a limit on the number of hordes out at one time. That way besides the one I mentioned where a horde is 5 or more, you can't sit there with 8 or more hordes. This is of course basing it off what you can do in game originally.
EDIT: OH wait I get it. The max per day is the total number of minions he can summon over the course of the day. i was thinking of it as the horde size.
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Yes - the numbers in my last post were on the basis of each minion being a sepearate creature - no hordes in my version.
And also yes - the max per day is intended to be much higher than the max at a time. With only 1 HP each you should expect to lose quite a few of them.
From a fluff perspective you could say that they're not technically creatures, but instead are manifestations of the overlord's power - hence the max # per day.
True, but as 1 hp creatures they'll die in a good stiff breeze, they will be all but useless at higher levels
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True, but as 1 hp creatures they'll die in a good stiff breeze, they will be all but useless at higher levels
Well - I do think that the AC is probably too low. (hence my #1) Maybe have the crown add to their AC as well as attack/damage.
But with a decent AC and saves - I think they'd do okay. And with a copy of the 4e minion rules - fireballs etc don't spell instant death unless they fail their save. (no partial damage/effects)
If they still seem to die too fast - you could make them faster to summon starting at level 7ish. Change it to a move action to summon them, and potentially increase the total per day.
And remember - even before that they'd get to swing on the turn they're summoned as it doesn't take a full-round action.
I'll keep this in mind, but I rather like my horde rules and think I'm gonna play test it, if it turns out to be getting ridiculously overpowered I'll end up having to scrap it, or going the prestige class route.
Well... consider a few pre-built astral constructs that you can scale easily, or take a few specific summons, like start out with young lemures and have the 1d3 option happen sooner that other summoners. Between a narrow list and some specific tactical features, like maybe teamwork feats, I think you could balance it easily.
But I do third or forth using summoner or magus as a starting chassis from which to build.
summoner, though i haven't addressed it, was one of my initial thoughts, And if I were going to try it for real, in a game where I wanted him to be that within the already established rules of the game, I'd choose a summoner. This build, not only for the reason of just wanting to build him, is kind of a challenge to myself on creating a fun playable class.
yeah, just saying it, this is dead. I might at some point want to actually write games and use the minion mechanic, and since apparently paizo owns everything we write on these boards, I'm not going to post it here even if I do finish it