can you fire a concealed tube arrow shooter?

[ohako]

Ultimate Equipment wrote:

tube arrow shooter:This weapon consists of a small metal tube hidden within a sleeve; the tube holds a short, spring-loaded bamboo shaft. You gain a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a tube arrow shooter on your body. Releasing the fastener allows the spring to force the arrow out. Once a shaft is fired, the tube must be reloaded before it can be used again. Reloading a tube is a full-round action, or a standard action if the wielder has the Rapid Reload feat.

If I conceal a tube arrow shooter (that is, if I declare that the weapon is 'hidden'), do I have to draw it as a standard action? And then, holding this tube in my hand, fire it with another standard action?

Or, as the text implies, can I conceal it merely by draping the sleeve of some poor wizard's robe over the underside of my wrist, and thus I could fire it from that position?

why I ask

Ultimate Combat wrote:

Underhanded* (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn't know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0).

In other words, if you can use a concealed weapon without having to, you know, actually draw the thing before you use it (and you have this furshlugginer talent and are suave enough to use that in conjunction and your target fails his Perception challenge), then you could actually deal max sneak damage.

Right?

[ohako]

I think this is the first time I've ever done a bump, so...bump?

[Bob Bob Bob]

Underhanded is actually sort of useless as written. A "hidden weapon" requires a standard action to draw. From Sleight of Hand: "Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity." If you didn't hide it using sleight of hand, it's not a "hidden weapon", which is the only language we have on hiding weapons. If you have not drawn a weapon, then you can't use it. I hope that's self explanatory.

[ohako]

There are exceptions to the rule that all hidden weapons can only be drawn as a standard action.

Items in a wrist sheath (dagger, dart, wand, or ammo) can be concealed and drawn as a move action.

Items in a spring-loaded wrist sheath can be concealed and drawn as a swift action (although that's still too slow for the surprise round unless you're a bandit rogue, apparently).

A sleeve holster (from the ACG) allows someone with a not-very-well-concealed-at-all coat pistol or hand crossbow to draw that weapon as a move or swift action. I think basically you need to cover the weapon with baggy clothing (which incidentally nets you an extra +2) in order for it to count as concealed.

All three of these items reside in the 'sleeve' or 'wrist' of the bearer. As does the tube arrow shooter.

The tube arrow shooter was originally published in Ultimate Combat, but that book does not illustrate what this item looks like.

Here are basic restatements of my original question, which I do not believe has been answered:

a) can a tube arrow shooter be hidden in a sleeve such that it is intended to be fired from that position?
b) what sort of action is it to 'release the fastener', and does that action actually fire the weapon?
c) can a tube arrow shooter be hidden somewhere else on the body, or perhaps in the hollow pommel of a hafted weapon?

[Peet]

It looks like you need a swift action for this to work:

PRD wrote:

The Surprise Round: .... combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round.

PRD wrote:

Swift Actions

.... You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.

So it seems that you can take a swift action during the surprise round. This is probably the only way to use this rogue talent. It`s tough to count on a surprise round though. Many combats won't have them.

I think you probably could use a spring-loaded wrist sheath to hold a tube arrow shooter.

If I was the GM in a home game I would allow a masterwork tube arrow shooter to be made with a trigger that could be held in the hand; a sleight-of-hand check would be enough to keep it out of sight. However, holding the trigger in your hand would occupy the hand as a weapon does. This would allow you to use the tube while it is still in your sleeve. I might impose a penalty to-it though as you are not actually holding it. That probably wouldn`t matter much as your opponent in this case is probably flat-footed.

Peet

[Eridan]

ohako wrote:

c) can a tube arrow shooter be hidden somewhere else on the body, or perhaps in the hollow pommel of a hafted weapon?

There was a movie were an assasin has a tube shooter mounted on his back. He has an audience by the emperor and must kneel down in front of him. Then he shows with the tube shooter. I think it was 'Hero'.