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I've been tooling around with the idea of a spontaneous witch (the warlock) and spontaneous druid class (the ovate) for some time. Ultimately, I gave up on them both until recently, when I was once more motivated to get back on it.
This is the first draft of a spontaneous witch, the warlock, and was designed as a result of gutting my Witch Archetype to give the Warlock his own, unique, class feature which didn't involve reusing bloodlines, tiresome pact concepts, hexes, and so on.
You can find the draft here: Warlock
I'd appreciate constructive comments, questions, and so on.
Note: For some reason, google docs really hates my pasted tables, so spells known and spells per level are left out of the document. However, they're identical to those of a sorcerer/oracle.
Honestly I love the ability to be a consistent scaling blaster with an untyped energy. Hard to comment to much because I can't see the spell list and this is a full caster.
I think dark euphoria is way to busted. It could cut the witchfire damage in half to compensate for the healing or maybe heal less or be a move action. As it stands it is like a free action cure when using your main source of damage
I think diplomacy would be a good class skill and maybe knowledge religion (iffy) because of the flavor of searching for their patron.
I should have been more clear in the document, but they use the witch spell list.
I also need to revise their fluff a bit more; in essence, they're similar to the sorcerer and oracle in that their power is thrust upon them and the search for what, who, and why is supposed to be a driving force for the characters.
Regarding dark euphoria, I think I agree. Would reducing the amount healed to the level of the sacrificed spell OR their Charisma modifier suit better?
If I grant diplomacy, should I drop bluff? I can also sorta see adding knowledge religion - knowledge planes was supposed to fill that void, but maybe it isn't appropriate.
I appreciate the response, by the way.
Made some minor changes.
- I underlined the spell list used in the Spells entry.
- Set Dark Euphoria to Charisma modifier.
- Fixed the wording on Blessing of the Godless so it didn't imply it stacked with the bonuses normally gained from witchfire use.
- Updated the flavor text a bit in some places.
Mmmmm... Witchy... I like it.
I think that the "Split Witchfire" feat might be unbalanced. I think maybe it should allow the Warlock to burn 2 spells in order to fuel the Witchfire (and in that vein you could have Improved/Greater Split Witchfire in order to burn away 3 or 4 spells in order to fuel an arcane Witchfire bombardment) because Witchfire is already pretty potent (and tends to be, mechanically, similar to Alchemist Bombs- if an alchemist threw 2 bombs it would reduce his bombs)
Also the prerequisites say Witch lvl 10? Should that be "witch spell list caster level 10" or something to that effect? Or is this feat mean for someone to take a level of Warlock and then 10 levels of witch? I don't think that is what is intended?
I have a question about Maledictions as well: the modified features (fatigue, shaken, etc.) do those apply to creatures in the "Splash" range as well? Or just the creature targeted? It also says whenever a Warlock "chooses to target one person" is the splash effect optional?
Mmmmm... Witchy... I like it.
I think that the "Split Witchfire" feat might be unbalanced. I think maybe it should allow the Warlock to burn 2 spells in order to fuel the Witchfire (and in that vein you could have Improved/Greater Split Witchfire in order to burn away 3 or 4 spells in order to fuel an arcane Witchfire bombardment) because Witchfire is already pretty potent (and tends to be, mechanically, similar to Alchemist Bombs- if an alchemist threw 2 bombs it would reduce his bombs)
I got what you're saying and I like the suggestion. I'll see what I can do about a rewrite when we get back from grocery shopping. Added a note indicating the feat is pending a rewrite.
Also the prerequisites say Witch lvl 10? Should that be "witch spell list caster level 10" or something to that effect? Or is this feat mean for someone to take a level of Warlock and then 10 levels of witch? I don't think that is what is intended?
Thanks for the catch! That's a relic from the original "witch" archetype. I've corrected it to be warlock in place of witch.
I have a question about Maledictions as well: the modified features (fatigue, shaken, etc.) do those apply to creatures in the "Splash" range as well? Or just the creature targeted? It also says whenever a Warlock "chooses to target one person" is the splash effect optional?
You caught another relic that has been present for some time and repeatedly overlooked. I've edited it to read "Whenever the warlock uses witchfire, the target also receives.." and so on.
The last sentence of the paragraph indicates that only the primary target suffers the effects of the malediction, but to be on the safe side I went ahead and underlined the sentence to further emphasis that.
At level 20, the capstone (Greater Witchfire) allows for those failing the Reflex save on splash damage to suffer the effects of the malediction, though all normal malediction saving throw rules apply. I went ahead and spelled that out specifically, as well.
Very productive feedback, and much appreciated!
An option for a familiar, and maybe different "pacts" giving different sets of maledictions, similar to mysteries and bloodlines? The Invoker class could give some ideas.
An option for a familiar, and maybe different "pacts" giving different sets of maledictions, similar to mysteries and bloodlines? The Invoker class could give some ideas.
So, I thought that was a pretty good idea Bardess, but implementation gave me a bit of trouble. If you could, I put together a quick archetype to see if I could get a better grasp of what you mean, let me know if I'm close or way off, please.=)
I've been unable to find the Invoker, however. Is it a 3rd party product?
You'll find the entry labeled at the bottom as New Archetype (Thaumaturge).
The Advanced Class Guide (ACG) has the unlettered arcanist archetype; an arcanist is a class that prepares spells "known" each day that can then be cast spontaneously like a sorcerer. Unlettered arcanists store their spells in a familiar instead of a spellbook and use the witch spell list.
No hexes or patron spells, although it can be combined with other archetypes like blood arcanist (gain a sorcerer bloodline), brown-fur transmuter (shifting shapes), or occultist (conjuring extraplanar creatures).
For a "spontaneous druid," the ACG hunter does pretty well (only 6th-level spells, though). Basic hunter focuses a lot on teamwork with the animal companion, but the archetypes divine hunter (gain a cleric domain and the animal companion gains the celestial or fiendish template) and feral hunter (gain wildshape instead of an animal companion) can emphasize different things, while primal companion hunter can apply evolutions (as with a summoner's eidolon) to the animal companion (or even themself) for short periods each day.
They may not be exactly what you're looking for, but at the very least you can use them as inspiration and/or mine them for ideas.
The warlock doesn't look like a match for the witch.
The Witch has at will hexes capable of targeting multiple saving throws with DCs based on half her level.
The Warlock burns spell slots for his equivalent feature and the damage and save DCs are based on spell level and the riders target the save that rises most with level. The scaling is also poor. A fourth level single target spell should be dealing 1d6/level to a max of 15 dice with a minimum of 7 or truly multitarget with a max of 10 dice with the same minimum. Witchfire is stuck down at 5 dice. Not worth the spell slot.
In terms of power this is a pure downgrade.
If you're trying to balance against the sorcerer don't forget that the witch list is much weaker than the wiz/sorc list and maybe even weaker than the cleric or druid lists.
You have some valid points, as usual. While I am less concerned about the scaling of the DCs, due in part to certain "debuffing" witch spells (bestow curse and so on; it may be an error on my part to be less concerned in this respect), I can certainly see the issue, which you illustrate clearly, regarding the damage output of potential spells sacrificed, as well as the weaker nature of the witch spell list.
A solution I thought of, almost immediately, is to grant the witchfire ability the old-school progression, following that of a cleric's channel energy: base damage is 1d6 at 1st level + 1d6 at every two levels thereafter; in addition, the sacrificed spell adds 1d6 per level of the spell sacrificed (removing bonuses to hit based on spell level from the class feature, as well as charisma to damage, and a retool of the 10th and 20th level powers).
The main concern I'm looking at with this is a warlock now has the ability to burn even 1st level spells for up to 11d6 damage; in the grand scheme, this isn't very much damage overall or much different than an at-will 10d6 ray with secondary effects. I'm not certain how to effectively cap them or whether it should be - it makes those 1st level spells you might not normally find useful a bit less useless.
Thoughts?
The Advanced Class Guide (ACG) has...[very helpful and informative text]...
They may not be exactly what you're looking for, but at the very least you can use them as inspiration and/or mine them for ideas.
I appreciate your suggestion, I genuinely do as it was quite helpful. I've been boycotting Paizo products, however, for some time now; the last thing I purchased from their product line was the Advanced Race Guide and I won't be purchasing anything from their product line for the forseeable future - it isn't that I'm unable to afford them, it's a matter of being the only legitimate means of protest available. I'll have to wait until such time as they add it to their PRD - though I should probably check to see if the material has been added to d20pfsrd. Thanks for the suggestion!
Well, I slept on this and really do not like the direction it is going. I don't like that the damage is too low in the trade off and I don't like the output with the modification. I also don't like the way I've pigeon-holed the class into "dark overtones" (the more I read Bardess' comment, the more I realize this is exactly what I've done).
With this in mind, I'm going to rewrite the mechanics of witchfire and maledictions a bit, separating them from the spell expenditure mechanic, in a similar fashion as the alchemists bomb mechanics; in a similar vein, I'll redo maledictions in the form of a pact, possibly tying them directly to Patrons. A form of "meta-witchfire" will result as well with uses per day (x at level + y per z levels thereafter) which will allow them to enhance their witchfire - I'm trying to decide whether the sacrifice spell mechanic should be tied to this enhancement.
With any luck, I'll have something resembling the framework of the mechanic within the next couple of days, if not sooner.
It took longer than I hoped for, but less time than I expected. I've updated and edited the document to reflect the following changes, which take into account many of the suggestions, comments, and corrections indicated by previous posters (I hope).
- Added a spells per day and spells known chart.
- Rewrote witchfire - not quite from the ground up - but it's much different.
- Remove maledictions.
- Removed improved and greater witchfire entries.
- Altered Patrons to reflect a sort of "pact". Patrons now have a witchfire essence which modifies witchfire based on patron, scaling power at 1st level, scaling power at 8th level.
- Added a sample Patron, Moon to be specific, as a framework for future Patrons (rough draft).
Constructive criticism, comments, questions, and suggestions are quite welcome.
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Archetype: Charismatic Witch
Taking this archtype, a witch becomes a spontaneous spellcaster. This archtype MUST be taken at first level. The witch's spells per day chart is replaced with that of the sorcerer. The witch gains a spells known chart, also identical to that of the sorcerer. Patron spells function similarly to bloodline bonus spells...they are spells that the witch automatically knows, beyond those learned on the spells known chart. The witch's skill points increase to 4+ Int bonus per level. Finally, a witch with this archtype associates her Charisma score with her spellcasting, not her intelligence.
Archetype: Wise Witch
Taking this archtype, a witch becomes a spontaneous spellcaster. This archtype MUST be taken at first level. The witch's spells per day chart is replaced with that of the sorcerer. The witch gains a spells known chart, also identical to that of the sorcerer. Patron spells function similarly to bloodline bonus spells...they are spells that the witch automatically knows, beyond those learned on the spells known chart. The witch's skill points increase to 4+ Int bonus per level. Finally, a witch with this archtype associates her Wisdom score with her spellcasting, not her intelligence.
Archetype: Spontaneous Witch
Taking this archtype, a witch becomes a spontaneous spellcaster. This archtype MUST be taken at first level. The witch's spells per day chart is replaced with that of the sorcerer. The witch gains a spells known chart, also identical to that of the sorcerer. Patron spells function similarly to bloodline bonus spells...they are spells that the witch automatically knows, beyond those learned on the spells known chart.
In 3.5, we used a similar method as a template for clerics (before favored soul) and Druids, but found them ultimately unsatisfactory.
That's not really the direction we, as a gaming group, want to go with, but your suggestion is very much appreciated, Kthulhu.
Added the "Shadow Patron".
Added an additional line to Witchfire regarding touch spells and delivery.
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not my jam, but cool concept.
what is the DC of splashing witchfire if no spell is sacrificed? this is unclear in your document.
why no familiar?
also, what if you set up his spellcasting like an Arcanist (prepared/spontaneous hybrid)? this seems appropriate given his need of both INT and CHA. further, what if his spells known was keyed to INT, where his spell DCs were keyed to CHA?
finally, the sentence under witchfire touch attack "so long as he has at least one witchfire remaining" is totally redundant.
what is the DC of splashing witchfire if no spell is sacrificed? this is unclear in your document.
finally, the sentence under witchfire touch attack "so long as he has at least one witchfire remaining" is totally redundant.
Thanks for catching those - both issues should be corrected now.
why no familiar?
The goal is to make the class similar, in many respects, to the sorcerer & oracle which draws on a heritage-based investment, i.e. the bloodline. Additionally, the witch class has a familiar in place of a spell book, but warlocks require no spellbook and/or storage. Also, I hate familiars. The only class that has a familiar in my home setting is the witch - wizards get the crappy bonded item option, but with some minor changes to make it less crappy.
Despite that, I'm giving some thought to certain patrons granting a familiar-like entity, but with fewer capabilities and better survivability options. I hope that makes sense.
also, what if you set up his spellcasting like an Arcanist (prepared/spontaneous hybrid)? this seems appropriate given his need of both INT and CHA. further, what if his spells known was keyed to INT, where his spell DCs were keyed to CHA?
I'm actively avoiding anything from the ACG for a while; I want to see how other poster on here feel about the class after a month or so of use before I touch the mechanics.
While I'm building this around pre-existing 3.x-Pathfinder mechanics (i.e. full caster with one stat focus), our actual house rules function almost exactly as you mention for all casters. All spellcasters are a bit MAD. I always try to build things as though our house rules don't exist, as it's always easy to adapt it for my table, but not so much for someone else without access to our documents.