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Somebody asked - seemed interesting. How would everyone respond to a huge and hard to reach stretch goal with the old Tome of Magic's shadow magic remastered for Pathfinder as the result? Four systems instead of three, probably another 40-50 pages. Probably only one class unless Jason or Thilo gets really excited.
Strange Magic, mate! It's all over these boards. Heck, the old thread even got necro'd this morning. Starts August 28th. I'll give you a link on Thursday :)
I'll also have a very rambly podcast interview posted on GMS Magazine sometime in September. I even forget Jason's last name for a solid 30 seconds. ^^
Now, bear in mind that since the old shadow magic system is effectively some sort of melange oracle with at-will abilities, and because the system has a few points of totally unnecessary obfuscation, shadow magic, like truename magic, will have its core mechanics almost entirely eliminated with one or two and a general shadow flavor retained to keep the essential feel of it. I've already got me some ideas, and I think the end result will make an excellent manipulator.
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Now, bear in mind that since the old shadow magic system is effectively some sort of melange oracle with at-will abilities, and because the system has a few points of totally unnecessary obfuscation, shadow magic, like truename magic, will have its core mechanics almost entirely eliminated with one or two and a general shadow flavor retained to keep the essential feel of it. I've already got me some ideas, and I think the end result will make an excellent manipulator.
I kind of assumed that between its innate flaws and the various copyright issues since it's not part of the OGL (I'm pretty sure it isn't...) we'd be seeing something fairly new and/or revamped out of it.
Would you be sustaining the core ideas of tiered ability levels and an at-will nature?
Alright, let's face it, shadow magic is all about the flavor, and I'd be a fool if I thought I could port that without intense modification. So, we're left with generic shadows for the flavor, or something new entirely that I cook up. That bit should be easy. Just invent some quantity with the word "Umbral" in it somewhere, build it up as a collective negative of the forces of nature, and go with it.
The original mechanics themselves encourage crippling overspecialization or master of none builds and are unable to fit happy mediums without exceptional work by a player. Sinkholes everywhere. A tiered system would be made significantly easier for players by reducing the number of spell levels to 6, or even to 3, thus making heavy investment in one "tree" less restrictive and allowing a magical "jack of all shadowy trades" balance to exist. Still, this doesn't remove the fairly awful "hard resets" that occur when moving across the tier line. In the old system, level 3 abilities are hard to get, while 4s are easy. That's just twisting wires together to make something work and looks bad.
Let's try this, then. We have three tiers of abilities: least, lesser, and greater, along with a very restrictive list of cantrips that, in the end, get as good as 1st-level, maybe close to 2nd-level spells in thematically-proper niches. Abilities are in categories: stealth, darkness, manipulation, imitation, etc. In each category, you have a pyramid scheme. You must have a least to get a lesser, two leasts to get two lessers, a lesser to get a greater, etc. etc. etc. To make this work, I'll need at least six categories, at least six abilities in each tier of each category (90 abilities + cantrips minimum), and powerful bonuses within a tree for specializing. Extra uses, leasts going supernatural, the ability to fire off a cantrip of that category as a swift action in the same round as cracking off a greater, bonus cantrip slots - whatever. That part will take some work, but the rest should be fairly easy to build.
Thoughts?
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Let's try this, then. We have three tiers of abilities: least, lesser, and greater, along with a very restrictive list of cantrips that, in the end, get as good as 1st-level, maybe close to 2nd-level spells in thematically-proper niches. Abilities are in categories: stealth, darkness, manipulation, imitation, etc. In each category, you have a pyramid scheme. You must have a least to get a lesser, two leasts to get two lessers, a lesser to get a greater, etc. etc. etc. To make this work, I'll need at least six categories, at least six abilities in each tier of each category (90 abilities + cantrips minimum), and powerful bonuses within a tree for specializing. Extra uses, leasts going supernatural, the ability to fire off a cantrip of that category as a swift action in the same round as cracking off a greater, bonus cantrip slots - whatever. That part will take some work, but the rest should be fairly easy to build.
Thoughts?
I like it. Do you think there'd be enough behind the idea of shadow-walking to give it its own category with a mobility based option, or do you think that folds into manipulation more? Any thoughts on the other two categories?
Would manipulation be better represented if you cut it in half and had one discipline focused on manipulating creatures and another on (temporarily) altering terrain? I like the idea of being able to shift the way terrain is perceived and interacted with via shadow magic for various effects, maybe building to being able to completely overlay areas with parts of the Plane of Shadow, draw in natives of that plane, etc.
I like it.
I actually pretty much ignored Shadow Magic, as I never really liked flavor of Shadows in general, or Shadow mages in particular.
However to see an adaption of the system with mechanics that work I would love to see. I have no problems taking a mechanical system and re-flavoring it for my world when I GM.
As I know I am going to back this one (although at a digital level - I've moved completely electronic), having the prospect of a whole new mechanical subsystem for something I'm going to get anyway - I'm all for it.
Love the idea. I'd be so stoked to see something like this. The original was so cool and full of flavor but felt so full of traps I never took it for a spin.
Gotta be some illusion in there too. Love me some illusion.
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Love the idea. I'd be so stoked to see something like this. The original was so cool and full of flavor but felt so full of traps I never took it for a spin.
Gotta be some illusion in there too. Love me some illusion.
I would think illusion would be a component of some or all of the various categories, with the particular types of illusions being associated to the overall theme (mimicry might have appearance altering illusions, stealth would have illusions that help obfuscate the caster, other paths might have illusions for creating imaginary walls or pits, etc.)
If you whant to make completely a new system for shadowmagic (umbrale) , no problem with that.
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@Sslarn, Aleron
Yes, I can see mobility and illusion being their own categories. Honestly, the more I think about this, the more the concept transforms into a "full caster edgewalker". Would we like a full caster edgewalker with super awesome yin yang bomb powers?
I wouldn't mind the edgewalker as an option, but in this sorta case I'd prefer it not be utterly forced too. By that I mean if I want to go full shadow (or I suppose full light), that should be a viable and doable option as well with needing to do both.
I wouldn't mind the edgewalker as an option, but in this sorta case I'd prefer it not be utterly forced too. By that I mean if I want to go full shadow (or I suppose full light), that should be a viable and doable option as well with needing to do both.
Sure, that's where the categories come into play. By making this dichotomy, I gain the ability to put a solid 12 categories out there without making my brain squint, and players gain the ability to hybridize their flavor in whatever split they want. Don't worry - the edgewalker is easily my most elegant system, but a caster it is not. New mechanics.
Alrighty! At $15,000 (or somewhere close to that - I'll do the math presently), I'll add a reworked antipodal shadowcaster (antipodist?) to Strange Magic, as well as the edgewalker with some new content due to flavor similarities, at no additional charge. Let's see if we can unlock that goodness!
Of course, if we do get there, I'd expect the book to become pretty monstrously expensive for anyone who didn't get it on the cheap during the Kickstarter. Hint hint :P
Alright, let's face it, shadow magic is all about the flavor, and I'd be a fool if I thought I could port that without intense modification. So, we're left with generic shadows for the flavor, or something new entirely that I cook up. That bit should be easy. Just invent some quantity with the word "Umbral" in it somewhere, build it up as a collective negative of the forces of nature, and go with it.
The original mechanics themselves encourage crippling overspecialization or master of none builds and are unable to fit happy mediums without exceptional work by a player. Sinkholes everywhere. A tiered system would be made significantly easier for players by reducing the number of spell levels to 6, or even to 3, thus making heavy investment in one "tree" less restrictive and allowing a magical "jack of all shadowy trades" balance to exist. Still, this doesn't remove the fairly awful "hard resets" that occur when moving across the tier line. In the old system, level 3 abilities are hard to get, while 4s are easy. That's just twisting wires together to make something work and looks bad.
Let's try this, then. We have three tiers of abilities: least, lesser, and greater, along with a very restrictive list of cantrips that, in the end, get as good as 1st-level, maybe close to 2nd-level spells in thematically-proper niches. Abilities are in categories: stealth, darkness, manipulation, imitation, etc. In each category, you have a pyramid scheme. You must have a least to get a lesser, two leasts to get two lessers, a lesser to get a greater, etc. etc. etc. To make this work, I'll need at least six categories, at least six abilities in each tier of each category (90 abilities + cantrips minimum), and powerful bonuses within a tree for specializing. Extra uses, leasts going supernatural, the ability to fire off a cantrip of that category as a swift action in the same round as cracking off a greater, bonus cantrip slots - whatever. That part will take some work, but the rest should be fairly easy to build.
Thoughts?
Along with the four you mentioned how about a travel category, as suggested by Ssalarn and a enshrouding/devouring category; consuming shadows, more or less, though this might tie into a void concept than shadow (but then again, shadows are just created from the absence/void of light).
Edit: Ninja-ed!
Good stuff, OmNomNid. There needs to be enough content to justify going pure dark or pure light, plus perhaps an archetype for each that rewards you for doing so.
I wasn't wild about shadow magic the first time around. However, I am a completionist, and AFAIK shadow magic is the only 3.5 subsystem with no published conversion to pathfinder, so I fully support this endeavor:)
Aye, neither was I. Don't expect the similarities to run very deep at all.
Sure, that's where the categories come into play. By making this dichotomy, I gain the ability to put a solid 12 categories out there without making my brain squint, and players gain the ability to hybridize their flavor in whatever split they want. Don't worry - the edgewalker is easily my most elegant system, but a caster it is not. New mechanics.
Like the idea of 'pure' archetypes that specialize and gain extra benefits relating. That's a cool idea and fits what I'd personally be after. I mean I don't always want my shadow chocolate in my radiant peanut butter even if they are usually pretty darn delicious together. Sometimes you just want to stuff your face with only chocolate.
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I want an ability that lets you create a shadowy corridor around your opponent that causes them to waste the first 10 feet of their movement every round they fail a save. And then make it scale.
Can I try to make a joke regarding that one staircase in Super Mario 64?
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I want an ability that lets you create a shadowy corridor around your opponent that causes them to waste the first 10 feet of their movement every round they fail a save. And then make it scale.Can I try to make a joke regarding that one staircase in Super Mario 64?
That was the first thing my fiancee said when I mentioned the idea to her :P
Could we have a magus archetype for shadow magic? I'm not sure how it would work, but that would be incredible flavor-wise. I would have to interrupt the campaign I'm running and make someone else GM just so that I could play it as soon as possible.
Yeah, that sounds like a great idea, mate. I'm not much of a marketer, so please do your part to help direct another $13,000 to the Kickstarter and I'll be happy to hammer away and make that a thing.
Will pledge at some level as soon as I get home. Can't do it from work, unfortunately.
Fair enough! Glad to have you on board!