Goblin Squad Member
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Banhammer is not the first choice. Player choice is more effective so there are 'incentives' to playing well with others. It is unlikely to affect most people who choose to change settlements because the settlements they elect to move to will have training and support structures themselves.
It will make it hard on those who have to relocate en masse because they lost a war, but hopefully they will have had the foresight to have stashed ample resources in an NPC held location to enable a quick reconstruction of their settlement on the frontier.
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Goblin Squad Member
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it is functionally the same as spontaneously forgetting how to tie your shoes because you moved in with housemates who only know how to use Velcro. This is poor design and needlessly punitive.Losing access to a Feat because you no longer have Settlement Support for it is no more irrational than only being able to slot (in a single Weapon Set) three of the four Primary Feats you've trained. It's how the game imposes balance.
I agree Nihimon, it is exactly as irrational as only being able to use a limited set of the skills/feats you have trained.
Fortunately, I understand the decision (as much as I dislike it) to limit access in combat to a small selection of a characters trained abilities as a balancing factor. However I disagree that Changing settlements impacting existing trained abilities provides balance. Once I have earned a particular feat through achievements and xp expenditure, that feat should always be available for my use when I want it.
Now if use of said feat is dependent on some component that settlement A had and settlement B does not, then I am perfectly fine with a need for me to find ways in game to outsource that component at other settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Banhammer is not the first choice. Player choice is more effective so there are 'incentives' to playing well with others. It is unlikely to affect most people who choose to change settlements because the settlements they elect to move to will have training and support structures themselves.
It will make it hard on those who have to relocate en masse because they lost a war, but hopefully they will have had the foresight to have stashed ample resources in an NPC held location to enable a quick reconstruction of their settlement on the frontier.
What happens when the need for me to leave my settlement imminently takes precedence over my ability to find a new home that fits my needs as a player? Should I simply log out and curtail all activity in game until such time as I have found that new settlement?
What if I want to spend a few months testing the waters, playing with many groups from different settlements before i decide on a final home? After the first month I will lose access to my feats (Beyond the basics) and no longer be as effective a party member. That will make it harder for new groups to be accepting of me.|
Goblin Squad Member
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One does not simply forget how to tie one's shoes or swing one's sword just because one has moved to a new home.
Most high level athletes rely heavily on their support structures.
Coaches, trainers, medical staff, nutritionists, equipment, etc...Remove all of those social supports, and their level of performance will drop dramatically.
No, they won't suddenly forget all of their skills, but they will certainly drop from tier 3 (the best in the world) down to tier 2, or even the top of tier 1.
As a purely game mechanic, I like the support requirements. I want characters and players to care deeply about their settlements and become emotionally invested in them. I don't want settlement hopping to be a casual decision.
Edited to reply to the above post:
I think any settlement would be happy to accept a socially compatible member who could say "I have tier 2 training that I can't use right now, but will re-activate as soon as I join a settlement that supports those feats."
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Goblin Squad Member
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What happens when the need for me to leave my settlement imminently takes precedence over my ability to find a new home that fits my needs as a player?
That will depend on your social game, your networking skills. If you are going to play a high-risk game that could result in your having to move fast, or if you chose to hang with very devious, deceptive, dangerous players then you should have planned out an escape route, right? We aren't role playing 'dumb and dumber' here.
Should I simply log out and curtail all activity in game until such time as I have found that new settlement?
Put it this way: That would not be my first recommendation.
What if I want to spend a few months testing the waters, playing with many groups from different settlements before i decide on a final home?
Then that was your choice to make, right? Freedom entails responsibility. I suspect that all or most early characters will make a few missteps and we will learn from those and continue building our character the best we can in the time we have. Level playing field and all that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...if use of said feat is dependent on some component that settlement A had and settlement B does not, then I am perfectly fine with a need for me to find ways in game to outsource that component at other settlements.
You've hit the nail exactly on the head. The component is a support facility; if Settlement A has one, and Settlement B doesn't, Goblinworks is trying to push you toward lobbying Settlement B, in exchange for your services, to provide you with the support you need to give them those services.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...if use of said feat is dependent on some component that settlement A had and settlement B does not, then I am perfectly fine with a need for me to find ways in game to outsource that component at other settlements.You've hit the nail exactly on the head. The component is a support facility; if Settlement A has one, and Settlement B doesn't, Goblinworks is trying to push you toward lobbying Settlement B, in exchange for your services, to provide you with the support you need to give them those services.
Wow, just wow. I have never met someone so intentionally obtuse. It really is quite frustrating. Can't wait for my first war with your settlement.
In case your obtuseness was unintentional (in which case I apologize for my potentially inflammatory remark), or I haven't been clear enough in my intent. By access to a 'component', I meant access to some consumable such as but not necessarily limited to the material components of spells for spell casters, or poison for assassins that might be a necessary item used in the triggering of said feat that the new settlement is unable to craft thus requiring one to travel to an allied settlement in order to procure it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Most high level athletes rely heavily on their support structures.
Coaches, trainers, medical staff, nutritionists, equipment, etc...Remove all of those social supports, and their level of performance will drop dramatically.
No, they won't suddenly forget all of their skills, but they will certainly drop from tier 3 (the best in the world) down to tier 2, or even the top of tier 1.
One of those comments that make me wish I could click favorite more than once.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...if use of said feat is dependent on some component that settlement A had and settlement B does not, then I am perfectly fine with a need for me to find ways in game to outsource that component at other settlements.You've hit the nail exactly on the head. The component is a support facility; if Settlement A has one, and Settlement B doesn't, Goblinworks is trying to push you toward lobbying Settlement B, in exchange for your services, to provide you with the support you need to give them those services.Wow, just wow. I have never met someone so intentionally obtuse. It really is quite frustrating. Can't wait for my first war with your settlement.
In case your obtuseness was unintentional (in which case I apologize for my potentially inflammatory remark), or I haven't been clear enough in my intent. By access to a 'component', I meant access to some consumable such as but not necessarily limited to the material components of spells for spell casters, or poison for assassins that might be a necessary item used in the triggering of said feat that the new settlement is unable to craft thus requiring one to travel to an allied settlement in order to procure it.
Your wording was anything but clear, if that was your meaning.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I meant access to some consumable...
The difficulty with that method is there's nothing stopping you from laying in a stockpile of, say, three years'-worth of that consumable and then no longer needing to care about the issue. Goblinworks is making sure we'll all need to continue caring.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO won't be like WoW, where you have to link the achievement before you get invited to join the raid.
Speaking for Forgeholm, we'll be evaluating new members based on social compatibility, willingness to contribute to the settlement, and similar in-game goals, rather than any particular requirements for training or feats.
I assume most settlements will do likewise when recruiting.
Lack of tier 2 feats should not be a major impediment towards finding a settlement to join.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will also point out that as a primarily LE player my options should I lose my settlement will be even more severely limited than most. But I feel like that's the point as it drives more player interaction instead of everyone just trying to do their own thing with their own fenced off corner.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO won't be like WoW, where you have to link the achievement before you get invited to join the raid.
Speaking for Forgeholm, we'll be evaluating new members based on social compatibility, willingness to contribute to the settlement, and similar in-game goals, rather than any particular requirements for training or feats.
I assume most settlements will do likewise when recruiting.Lack of tier 2 feats should not be a major impediment towards finding a settlement to join.
I have already spoken with companies that plan to institute the training of specific skills to desired levels as requirements for membership.
But that's somewhat immaterial in the case I'm talking about. When I have been a Guild recruiter in the past we often would invite prospective members to party up with us, and their ability to be a significant contributor to the party was one of many factors we discussed when considering candidacy. If my performance is hamstrung by lacking access to a feat or feats then i'm not demonstrating my full abilities in game.
Bottom line the system is Subtractive and Punitive for no justifiable reason. Its one thing to punish griefers and harassers for undesirable behavior. Its another to remove (even as a temporary measure) the spoils of my hard work just because I decided to move to a new home.
For every possible exploit we come up with--in any game-system in PFO--I imagine Goblinworks has thought of three more. It'd be fascinating to know how often we come up with one that's not shown up on their white-board.
I dunno how often but many minds will always expoit in a way that will make the devs think wat. Sometimes exploits require multiple steps more. Like nearly every game has a dupe fiasco. I imagine some of the nastier flagging "exploits" are unknown to them now and will be hard to fix. That's why in the world there are juries because most hard rules that apply to situations can benefit the one who knows how to exploit them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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a fighter does not forget how to swing a sword, a cleric does not forget how to wear armor, a rogue does not forget how to pick locks, and a wizard does not forget how to prepare spells simply because they moved away from home...
And major league baseball players would keep the same batting average if they trained with a soccer team for a season?
Taking away things I have spent a significant amount of time and energy developing is a pisspoor mechanic from a customer service standpoint.
Having your settlement razed - that is loss of significant time and development. Having to find a new place to live within a month or some skills are temporarily disabled - not really so much.
(And if anyone ends up in the situation where no established settlement will take them, then the real problem isn't the loss of skills).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have already spoken with companies that plan to institute the training of specific skills to desired levels as requirements for membership.
If they require training of those skills, presumably their settlement also supports those skills, so anyone joining them would have the support for their feats to be usable.
Bottom line the system is Subtractive and Punitive for no justifiable reason. Its one thing to punish griefers and harassers for undesirable behavior. Its another to remove (even as a temporary measure) the spoils of my hard work just because I decided to move to a new home.
Your hard work should be aimed at making your settlement more prosperous, and powerful.
Getting a feat on your character isn't hard work. It just requires paying a subscription fee for x number of hours.The hard work goes into developing your settlement so it can support the use of those feats.
Leaving a settlement is more akin to re-rolling a new toon in WoW than it is to changing guilds.
The stats of your settlement are just as important to your PFO character's power as the stats on your character sheet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I see the point your're driving at Master of Shadows...and part of me agree's with you on basic principle. The thing is...at least at this point...we don't know what those "feats" will be that could be put on hiatus whilst you search for a new settlement or wait for your new one to be built. How big an impact it's going to have on you...and will starter settlements be able to support some higher feats or not..??
The good thing is that it's still in Alpha and we're having this discussion...instead of two months after OE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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a fighter does not forget how to swing a sword, a cleric does not forget how to wear armor, a rogue does not forget how to pick locks, and a wizard does not forget how to prepare spells simply because they moved away from home...And major league baseball players would keep the same batting average if they trained with a soccer team for a season
Apples and Oranges, what you're describing is the degradation of a skill do to non use, or training another skill instead. What I'm describing would be like a baseball player training with a soccer team and then coming back to baseball only to realize he forgot what a bat was.
For the record I wouldn't particularly care for skill degradation either. I just don't feel there should be penalties to a characters build based on a decision to move settlements. The move will be difficult enough just with the need to acclimate to new players and new ways of doing things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Apples and Oranges, what you're describing is the degradation of a skill do to non use, or training another skill instead. What I'm describing would be like a baseball player training with a soccer team and then coming back to baseball only to realize he forgot what a bat was.
To the best of my knowledge, the NPC settlements to which you will revert when you leave a player settlement are intended to be able to support Tier 1 feats.
So, what you lose when you don't have access to better support are Tier 2 and Tier 3 feats. Those represent levels 9-20 of the tabletop game.
Level 9 abilities are literally superhuman prowess if you compare them to the abilities of an olympic athlete.
So, we're not talking about forgetting what a bat is. We are talking about losing access to extremely high-end and difficult manuevers and techniques.
I think you are under-estimating the effectiveness of Tier 1 characters.
Using a tier 3 feat effectively will require: the character spent the exp on the feat, the settlement supports that feat, and the character has tier 3 gear equipped that matches that feat's keywords.
Based on what we know about threading, I think most of the time characters will be in the tier 2 range for their normal activities, and only bust out tier 3 in emergencies.
Having to drop down to tier 1 briefly while you are between settlements shouldn't be the death knell for your character's progress.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The devs have made it clear in the blogs that formations and high tier gear ARE a steep divide in power. Hopping around and costing your settlement influence may make you homeless, and it will matter.
Play the game, and watch the people who engage in such honorless shenanigans 'for the lulz' end up marginalized.