Let's talk about magic


Gamer Life General Discussion

Liberty's Edge

Every playable system I have seen is based on the following principles.
1. There are a finite number of spells, each of which has a specific effect;
2. a caster has access to a subset of those spells;
3. a caster's ability to cast spells is a limited resource;
4. as the caster gains experience, he can access and cast a greater number of spells, and spells of greater power.

In a Vancian scheme (Pathfinder Wizard), Principle (1) is from the rule books; Principle (2) is defined by the wizard's spellbook, and Principles (3) and (4) come from the class tables listing how many spells of each level the wizard can prepare in a day.

Of course, things are slightly different for a cleric, but she still has access only to spells up to a spell level defined by her level.

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So?

Liberty's Edge

People (well, some people) seem to dislike the Vancian scheme. What else have you used? What other ideas do people have? Are there different starting assumptions?

I should have said all that to begin with, shouldn't I?


Recharge magic rules from Unearthed Arcana is usually how I tackle the per-diem issue.

Sovereign Court

We once used the psionic system with power points, and renamed them mana. It was fun. Also kinda broken.

Most of the other spellcasting systems are either too broken or don't really work in a TTRPG.


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Theconiel wrote:

People (well, some people) seem to dislike the Vancian scheme. What else have you used? What other ideas do people have? Are there different starting assumptions?

I should have said all that to begin with, shouldn't I?

Yup =)

Speaking for myself alone, I'm fond of the effects of Pact Magic from 3.5's Tome of Magic and Radiance House's Occultist: most of your abilities are either passive always-on or at-will, with one or two more powerful abilities that are on a 5-round recharge timer.

I'm also a big fan of power points and psionics.

I liked Magic of Incarnum back in 3.5 and am looking forward to Dreamscarred Press's Akashic Mysteries which is tackling a similar system.

As for "are there different starting assumptions":

Quote:
1. There are a finite number of spells, each of which has a specific effect;

On the one hand, this is usually how it has to work with a game system. It's typically simpler and easier to understand that way.

That said, the Words of Power system can - to some degree - defy this, by being able to assemble spells on the fly with different details. At that point, the limitations of how many spells exist are astronomical based on how many possible legal combinations of Words there are.

Playing with WoP is something that is on my to-do list, but unfortunately it hasn't gotten the love it really needs, save from two or three 3pp products.

Quote:
2. a caster has access to a subset of those spells;

Again, a bit of a necessity. Even a Wordcaster has a limited library. Of the four assumptions, I think this one is the least negotiable.

Quote:
3. a caster's ability to cast spells is a limited resource;

And this one, I think, is the most negotiable. 3.5's Binder and Warlock are the first two to come to mind as proving that unlimited use of magic does not make a class overpowered. Now, doing that with standard casters would take some severe adjustment - primarily to the spells themselves. They'd need some severe nerfing before I'd be 100% okay with a caster running around with unlimited uses of certain spells all day, every day.

Quote:
4. as the caster gains experience, he can access and cast a greater number of spells, and spells of greater power.

This is pretty standard expectation. Higher levels = more power, and to a caster more power = stronger spells and/or more spells. At the very least, the spells he already has would necessarily improve, either just getting bigger and stronger, or gaining new effects. Not much I think can be done to adjust that, at least not that would have a positive result.


Theconiel wrote:
What else have you used? What other ideas do people have? Are there different starting assumptions?

I recommend using > this magic system < .

.


Theconiel wrote:

Every playable system I have seen is based on the following principles.

1. There are a finite number of spells, each of which has a specific effect;
2. a caster has access to a subset of those spells;
3. a caster's ability to cast spells is a limited resource;
4. as the caster gains experience, he can access and cast a greater number of spells, and spells of greater power.

In a Vancian scheme (Pathfinder Wizard), Principle (1) is from the rule books; Principle (2) is defined by the wizard's spellbook, and Principles (3) and (4) come from the class tables listing how many spells of each level the wizard can prepare in a day.

Of course, things are slightly different for a cleric, but she still has access only to spells up to a spell level defined by her level.

Are we talking strictly within a D&D framework? You're describing the basic principles of D&D magic since the early editions.

There are other frameworks. White Wolf's Mage gave you access to Spheres of power. You could define your own effects on the fly based on general parameters for each Sphere.

Hero System lets you build your own spells out of point based power building blocks.

In Call of Cthulhu you can learn spells from certain ancient tomes. They cost magic points to cast, but there are no other limitations on when you can learn which spells. Of course, it's generally a horribly bad idea to cast any of them, but...

There are an awful lot of playable magic paradigms out there, once you leave D&D behind.


Shadowrun had/has an interesting system for magic, requiring a roll for each cast to mitigate fatigue from casting. Basically giving you non-lethal (usually) damage to recover, depending on your roll.

Not implemented very well in the earlier editions I looked at, but a good concept.


T&T FTW!

"I cast a powerful spell that shows all who dare oppose me are doomed, and then I pass out."


GURPS uses a mana pool of magic points, based on how many character points you've spent on your pool. Individual spells are skills that you learn (again, spending character points for ranks), and your skill rank indicates how successful you are at casting the spell. The spells in GURPS are rather generic; the player determines the specific effects.

Sorcery in Amber Diceless Role-Playing (and its successor Lords of Gossamer and Shadow) is much more free-form: You can bring about just about any effect you can think of, but the more complex the effect, the longer it takes to cast. You can "rack" spells ahead of time in your mind or into an Object of Power to decrease the casting time. This is important if you want to throw spells quickly, like in combat or against someone using a faster power. But the effects are anything you can think of. Sorcerey is also a lesser power, and can usually be undone by someone wielding a great power (i.e. Pattern, Logrus, or Trump). How much you can cast and how powerful your magic can be depends on your Psyche and Endurance attribute scores.

thejeff wrote:
In Call of Cthulhu you can learn spells from certain ancient tomes. They cost magic points to cast, but there are no other limitations on when you can learn which spells. Of course, it's generally a horribly bad idea to cast any of them, but...

Casting spells in CoC also costs Sanity points. You really don't want to run out of those.


Haladir wrote:


thejeff wrote:
In Call of Cthulhu you can learn spells from certain ancient tomes. They cost magic points to cast, but there are no other limitations on when you can learn which spells. Of course, it's generally a horribly bad idea to cast any of them, but...
Casting spells in CoC also costs Sanity points. You really don't want to run out of those.

Well, that was part of the "horribly bad idea" part.

Along with learning a Summon spell without realizing there's a Bind that goes along with it. :)


In Mutants and Masterminds, magic is a power that you can use at will, just like any other superpower.

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I like the fudge system in Dresden RPG

Liberty's Edge

Haladir wrote:
GURPS uses a mana pool of magic points, based on how many character points you've spent on your pool. Individual spells are skills that you learn (again, spending character points for ranks), and your skill rank indicates how successful you are at casting the spell. The spells in GURPS are rather generic; the player determines the specific effects.

GURPS is from Steve Jackson Games, right? Isn't it based on The Fantasy Trip from the 1980s?


Theconiel wrote:
Haladir wrote:
GURPS uses a mana pool of magic points, based on how many character points you've spent on your pool. Individual spells are skills that you learn (again, spending character points for ranks), and your skill rank indicates how successful you are at casting the spell. The spells in GURPS are rather generic; the player determines the specific effects.
GURPS is from Steve Jackson Games, right? Isn't it based on The Fantasy Trip from the 1980s?

Not officially, since Steve Jackson didn't have the rights to the The Fantasy Trip, but he developed both of them and there was definitely influence.


I haven't played GURPS in a while, but it was my go-to game system for most of the 1990s.

To be honest, I was never a fan of the GURPS magic rules, and I rarely used it for fantasy settings. I felt it worked best for pulp, modern-day, cyberpunk, and space opera settings.

GURPS is in the skill-based family of games. There are no character classes or levels. Character advancement only increases you ranks in skills and powers.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Marvel Super heroes magic usually emulated the ability of a super power. There really wasn't a limiter on how many spells you can cast per day.

Then again, super hero RPGs tend to be on the extreme end of the game balance spectrum.


There are more than a few games that violate rule 1. It does have consequences though and it gets into the nature of how defined a system is and what that means.

In a highly defined system, every thing is it's own discreet thing. Fireball is different from Lightning Bolt is different from Magic Jar. Each aspect gets highly defined and interactions get worked out. This allows for a broader scope of mechanical possibilities. Individual options can "break" the rules in certain ways, because it's been defined and understood how that happens and does so in a controlled manner.

In a less defined system you don't pre-determine what individual actions of magic can do, but rather define what is possible within the scope of magic. Imagine it like this...

A wizard takes proficiency in Evoking magic. He can deal damage to his enemies and create force effects. You define how much damage at what levels, maybe how large of an area as well. Then when the player casts the spells, he's free to narrate and choose how the spell manifests on the fly. There are still rolls associated, but that spell could be a one-time thing, or serve as inspiration for future castings.

I've played a few games that use a method similar to that, they define the mechanical effects of magic, give inspiration for the color, but leave the specifics to the GM and player. These are usually games with fewer definitions of actions in general (they just tell you how to attack, no specific rules for grappling/disarming/tripping/etc) allowing the GM and player to add specifics as the narration of the story demands.

Both methods are good IMO, but produce different results. One of the neat things about a defined system is that it creates restrictions and boundaries you have to work in, which often produces very creative results that are really interesting. A less defined system on the other hand gets out of the way and relies only on your creativity to create situations that are interesting, which works great when you are "on".

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