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I don't get it. What about technology is so broken that you need to put a feat tax on it? Why would I let my players gimp their characters like this?
I get that hightech is rare on Golarion. I get that not everybody knows how to operate an Inferno Pistol. But then again, the same goes for magic, as magic is rare too, and commoners aren't generally known for their ability to use wands etc.
In other words, I don't know why I should tell a player that his character can't disable this magical trap, while he can't disable this explosive, even though they're both CR1 traps. Basically, what the technology rules tell me is that you need a feat for a lot of things you'd normally be able to do without that feat in all of the other adventurepaths. That's a no-no for me.
Now to add insult to injury, what did I find on page 56 of Fires of Creation? Yeah, Meyanda gets Technologist as a bonus feat. (By the way, Neil Spicer messed up on her other feats too.) So not only do the players have to take this ridiculous feat tax, their enemies get to ignore it with bonus feats.
It's all dependent on the era the PCs are in. Because they are from a world that isn't as advanced as the technology in Numeria, it's more difficult to use and repair many of the items. A mundane trap is something people understand because it is based on current technology of Golarion. Likewise with magic traps (though only those with trapfinding understand that). But explosives are based on technology that hasn't been discovered yet, so it's almost impossible unless you are versed in the knowledge of it. It'd be like asking someone from the Renaissance to disarm an IED without any knowledge on electronics or how explosives work.
If the setting was more steeped in sci-fi, then you cold probably remove the feat and let people use these abilities. Much like how making firearms more readily available lets players no longer need gunsmithing and exotic weapon proficiency (firearms). It's all about the current era of the Golarion setting.
Creative Director
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Technology isn't broken at all, and the Technologist feat doesn't exist to "feat tax" it for game balance reasons.
The feat exists to model the fact that it's a bit weird to assume someone who's never seen a high-tech item before (the bulk of Golarion's inhabitants) knows enough about that item to be able to, say, Disable Device it with no penalty. The feat also exists as a way to help explain why knowledge of the tech hasn't spread far beyond Numeria.
Magic is not as rare as you imply, and it is a LOT LOT LOT LOT LOT more common than technology in Golarion. Magic is available to every potential PC at 1st level if they take the right class. High tech is not. Magic appears in every adventure (Iron Gods included). High tech does not. The super science stuff governed by the Technologist feat is indeed stuff that is orders of magnitude more obscure and rare than magic, and that's the whole point of the Technologist feat—to model the fact that the stuff is poorly understood if at all by the vast majority of those who live on Golarion.
If you want to remove the Technologist feat and its limitations from your game and allow PCs and NPCs access to all the alternate skill uses and feats without that as a barrier to entry, that will NOT affect your rules balance, since the tech items are built and balanced as magic items.
It's up to your GM, in other words.
In any case, we WILL be giving Technologist as a bonus feat to NPCs now and then to model the fact that these NPCs grew up among technology and/or know about it. NPCs get to do that, because they're built for a different role than a PC. We often give NPCs unusual abilities or bonus feats for these reasons.
And several of the campaign traits for Iron Gods allow for sidestepping certain elements as well.
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So you'd be fine with this feat if the GM would say that you'd need it because magic is really, really rare in this campaign setting even though in this particular campaign it's not?
Mage
You are familiar with the basic workings of magic.
Benefit: You are considered to be trained in any skill used against a magic-based subject. If the skill in question requires training to use even against non-magical subjects, you must still have ranks in that skill in order to gain the benefit of Mage.
Normal: You treat all skill checks made against magic as if they were untrained skill checks. This may mean that you cannot attempt certain skill checks, even if you possess ranks in the skill in question.
Because this is what I see.
Magic isn't as common as you imply, however. When you consider a level 1 Cure Light Wounds potion would cost the average person a month's salary (or more), most people don't possess potions unless they found one or were given it. Likewise, even a stone with Continual Flame costs a bit of money and is for the "rich" rather than the average person in Golarion.
I don't get it. What about technology is so broken that you need to put a feat tax on it? Why would I let my players gimp their characters like this?
I get that hightech is rare on Golarion. I get that not everybody knows how to operate an Inferno Pistol. But then again, the same goes for magic, as magic is rare too, and commoners aren't generally known for their ability to use wands etc.In other words, I don't know why I should tell a player that his character can't disable this magical trap, while he can't disable this explosive, even though they're both CR1 traps. Basically, what the technology rules tell me is that you need a feat for a lot of things you'd normally be able to do without that feat in all of the other adventurepaths. That's a no-no for me.
Now to add insult to injury, what did I find on page 56 of Fires of Creation? Yeah, Meyanda gets Technologist as a bonus feat. (By the way, Neil Spicer messed up on her other feats too.) So not only do the players have to take this ridiculous feat tax, their enemies get to ignore it with bonus feats.
Except your PCs aren't commoners. They're adventurers, a cut above the average person. Magic isn't quite as rare for them as it is for normal people (unless the GM specifies otherwise). Advanced technology, however, is unheard of for commoners and rare for adventurers. That's why the Technologist feat exists.
So you'd be fine with this feat if the GM would say that you'd need it because magic is really, really rare in this campaign setting even though in this particular campaign it's not?
Mage
You are familiar with the basic workings of magic.
Benefit: You are considered to be trained in any skill used against a magic-based subject. If the skill in question requires training to use even against non-magical subjects, you must still have ranks in that skill in order to gain the benefit of Mage.
Normal: You treat all skill checks made against magic as if they were untrained skill checks. This may mean that you cannot attempt certain skill checks, even if you possess ranks in the skill in question.Because this is what I see.
You're seeing things wrong, then. Magic is not super super rare for adventurers. Advanced technology is. If you have such a problem with it then change it.
You know, I love the world Paizo has created with Golarion. I enjoy Pathfinder a lot. And the APs are a godsend for those of us who don't have the time to home-craft campaigns anymore.
That said... I kind of like the fantasy worlds where magic is a bit rarer and requires many years of hard work to master, where spellcasting clerics aren't a dime a dozen, and where monsters are monstrous and frightening. It increases the feel of being a hero, at least to me.
In all likelihood I'll be running Golarion for the next couple of decades even if I never bought another Paizo product (I mean, it's taken a year to get a little over a third of the way through Runelords, and maybe a fifth of the way through Reign of Winter). But that doesn't reduce that little writer's voice that says "magic should be rare. That way it's truly special."
You know, I love the world Paizo has created with Golarion. I enjoy Pathfinder a lot. And the APs are a godsend for those of us who don't have the time to home-craft campaigns anymore.
That said... I kind of like the fantasy worlds where magic is a bit rarer and requires many years of hard work to master, where spellcasting clerics aren't a dime a dozen, and where monsters are monstrous and frightening. It increases the feel of being a hero, at least to me.
In all likelihood I'll be running Golarion for the next couple of decades even if I never bought another Paizo product (I mean, it's taken a year to get a little over a third of the way through Runelords, and maybe a fifth of the way through Reign of Winter). But that doesn't reduce that little writer's voice that says "magic should be rare. That way it's truly special."
I like those kinds of fantasy worlds too. That's one of the big draws to me towards Game of Thrones (other than the intrigue and wonderful characters, of course). It is a decidedly fantasy setting but many of the fantastical elements are very low-key and regarded as myth and superstition. I definitely feel ya there.
I don't mind magic being uncommon for adventurers in Golarion (I see it as neither common nor rare, even for 1st level adventurers), with all that being said.
I'll probably advise my GM to make this a trait rather than a feat, if we keep it at all. Our world is a bit higher-tech than Golarion, especially by the time we get to the point in the timeline where IG occurs.
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Creative Director
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So you'd be fine with this feat if the GM would say that you'd need it because magic is really, really rare in this campaign setting even though in this particular campaign it's not?
Mage
You are familiar with the basic workings of magic.
Benefit: You are considered to be trained in any skill used against a magic-based subject. If the skill in question requires training to use even against non-magical subjects, you must still have ranks in that skill in order to gain the benefit of Mage.
Normal: You treat all skill checks made against magic as if they were untrained skill checks. This may mean that you cannot attempt certain skill checks, even if you possess ranks in the skill in question.Because this is what I see.
If the setting were one where magic was super rare and obscure (like, say, it is in Game of Thrones), then yes, a feat like that would make sense to me/ I wouldn't call it "Mage." I'd call it something like "Magical Studies" or the like, but yes.
And if said campaign world had one region that had magic front and center as an exception, many of the NPCs who lived in there would gain the feat as a bonus feat as an advantage for being an NPC in the region, and I would set up the player's guide for that AP to give players some ways to get some of the benefits of the feat as a trait.
Baseline Pathfinder/Golarion is not that setting, so that feat doesn't exist.
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Is feat tax the new buzzword the kids are using now?
It's not really world balance because it's not trying to balance different aspects of the world. Rather, it is genre representative for a world where futuristic technology is more rare than magic.
Look at firearms. Baseline, you need an exotic weapon proficiency and gunsmith to even use them. But if you move it to an era where firearms are more common, you don't need those feats anymore more. It's a part of the genre. If this were a campaign that was more entrenched in technology, where the Technic League isn't hoarding technology, then Technologist wouldn't be neccesary. But right now, the baseline for the setting is that it is rare for a PC to know the inner workings of technology because of the rarity of that technology in addition to the hoarding by the League.
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Creative Director
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Technology isn't broken at all, and the Technologist feat doesn't exist to "feat tax" it for game balance reasons.
The feat exists to model the fact that it's a bit weird to assume someone who's never seen a high-tech item before (the bulk of Golarion's inhabitants) knows enough about that item to be able to, say, Disable Device it with no penalty. The feat also exists as a way to help explain why knowledge of the tech hasn't spread far beyond Numeria.
Then, would it not be more appropriated to call it "world balance " instead of game balance?
I have not the Iron gods AP, but, "in game" terms, it does sounds like a feat tax.
Story balance is a better term, I guess. It's also an attempt to make technology feel more exotic and unusual.
Again, there are campaign traits that can help as well. Check out Local Ties and Stargazer.
And again... if you and/or your GM feels that there's not a need to put a throttle on technology in your game, feel free to not use the feat.
Or even better, feel free to give it out as a bonus feat to every PC in an Iron Gods game. It'll make technology feel less different, but that might be a necessary evil if the feat's seen too much as a Feat Tax.
Indeed, in designing the book, Technologist went back and forth several times in my mind, because I knew some folks would see it as a feat tax. But in the end, I felt that there needed to be a reason in-world why a 1st level expert locksmith from Sandpoint wouldn't be equally versed in picking padlocks as he would at picking electronic locks.
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Creative Director
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Technology isn't broken at all, and the Technologist feat doesn't exist to "feat tax" it for game balance reasons.
The feat exists to model the fact that it's a bit weird to assume someone who's never seen a high-tech item before (the bulk of Golarion's inhabitants) knows enough about that item to be able to, say, Disable Device it with no penalty. The feat also exists as a way to help explain why knowledge of the tech hasn't spread far beyond Numeria.
Then, would it not be more appropriated to call it "world balance " instead of game balance?
I have not the Iron gods AP, but, "in game" terms, it does sounds like a feat tax.
There are also other things that help PCs interact with technology. The Numerian Scavenger, for example, is a rouge archetype that grants Technolgist as a bonus feat among other things. The Techslinger can select it as a bonus gunslinger feat. The spell technomancy allows for the identification of tech items without the feat (or gives you a boost to Knowledge [engineering] checks if you DO have the feat).
When it comes down to it, the thing you'll most often need Technologist to help with are as follows:
- Crafting technological items (which is in and of itself something that not every GM will allow, and which require other in-game conditions you won't have at 1st level and have to discover/acquire during the course of play).
- Arming technological explosives. This may help here and there in the AP, but is hardly required for success.
- Disarming sci-fi tech traps. This one is arguably the most important reason in the AP to gain the feat, since there are a fair number of these types of traps in the adventure. Which is why the Numerian Scavenger rogue archetype gives the feat for free... but a better option might be to take Local Ties to gain the benefits of the feat to Disable Device.
- Deciphering computer code. This isn't going to be a significant part of the Iron Gods AP. It might show up here and there, but not in a required-to-win sense.
- Identifying technological items. Again, the technomancy spell is in the game for folks who don't have a character with the Technologist feat and ranks in Knowledge (engineering) to identify them that way.
That's really it, as far as what the feat unlocks for you as regards skill use. It's not as overwhelming a thing as you might expect. There are very few, if any, technological items that a person can't use without the feat, so you don't need Technologist to use any of the items you find along the way.
Not everyone in the party needs to be a Technologist, in any event. Pretty much if you have a character who wants to craft technology, or a character you want to be able to identify technological items, or a character who you want to be able to disarm and fiddle with them. Other character builds won't see much benefit from the feat, frankly.
Honestly, I'd probably do the same for a stone age game where the players come into contact with some Renaissance technology.
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Sounds like a bunch of min/maxers who'd complain about this feat, and I agree with JJ on it. Just as firearms are exotic weapons for everyone except certain archetypes and the Gunslinger, high-tech equipment requires the Technologist feat to interact with - and, just like the exotic weapon proficiency feat, there are archetypes to help with that.
My Cleric I built for this campaign snagged the feat, considering he's a Cleric of Brigh who also snagged firearm proficiency via the Black Powder Inquisition. With the Technologist feat as his human bonus feat, he can jump right into using tech as we find it!
With Knowledge(Engineering) as a class skill due to the Scroll Scholar Archetype, Disable Device as a class skill due to a Brigh Religion Trait found in the Inner Sea Gods book, and Perception as a class skill due to the Seeker Trait, my cleric is ready and able to make the most out of the Technologist Feat. Sure, I could've taken Local Ties and saved myself a feat, but for story reasons I didn't go for it - I went with the Skymetal Smith one.
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When I GM this game I'll probably grant Technologist as a boon, players can earn from getting through part one or two of the first adventure, and if a PC has already chosen Technologist then I'll probably let them pick another thing.
I like the idea of PCs being unfamiliar with these machines, but experience and study lets them become more familiar. Of course some PCs might decide to go with something other than Technologist if they want a character that just doesn't understand these Infernal Contraptions!
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When I GM this game I'll probably grant Technologist as a boon, players can earn from getting through part one or two of the first adventure, and if a PC has already chosen Technologist then I'll probably let them pick another thing.
I like the idea of PCs being unfamiliar with these machines, but experience and study lets them become more familiar. Of course some PCs might decide to go with something other than Technologist if they want a character that just doesn't understand these Infernal Contraptions!
As an amusing front,
My character I built for this AP, A Barbarian chose technologist and local ties.He's eventually going into Oracle of Lore and then onto Rage Prophet
As a result, he's a barbarian with a disable device skill of 8 at level one.
Im a Big fan of A typical characters. This Feat and that trait enabled me to make him; a melee combatant that deals with technological treasure through divine/magical means on an indiana jones/thundarr level.
How cool is that?
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If the setting were one where magic was super rare and obscure (like, say, it is in Game of Thrones), then yes, a feat like that would make sense to me/ I wouldn't call it "Mage." I'd call it something like "Magical Studies" or the like, but yes.
And if said campaign world had one region that had magic front and center as an exception, many of the NPCs who lived in there would gain the feat as a bonus feat as an advantage for being an NPC in the region, and I would set up the player's guide for that AP to give players some ways to get some of the benefits of the feat as a trait.
Baseline Pathfinder/Golarion is not that setting, so that feat doesn't exist.
In other words, if this was a "Space Opera" version of Pathfinder then technologist would be unneeded .
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Creative Director
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In other words, if this was a "Space Opera" version of Pathfinder then technologist would be unneeded .If the setting were one where magic was super rare and obscure (like, say, it is in Game of Thrones), then yes, a feat like that would make sense to me/ I wouldn't call it "Mage." I'd call it something like "Magical Studies" or the like, but yes.
And if said campaign world had one region that had magic front and center as an exception, many of the NPCs who lived in there would gain the feat as a bonus feat as an advantage for being an NPC in the region, and I would set up the player's guide for that AP to give players some ways to get some of the benefits of the feat as a trait.
Baseline Pathfinder/Golarion is not that setting, so that feat doesn't exist.
Correct.