Master of Many Styles Level PreReq Question

[ArtaXia]

Okay so ill start with summarizing the Bonus feat Replacement
1)At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat.
Meaning: I can take Elemental Fist at level 1
2)He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path.
Meaning: I can take any style feat which does not require elemental fist, though if I did take elemental fist as one of my bonus feats that I could then take one of the style feats which require elemental fist.

So if the above stated is correct... Does this mean that I could effectively take Efreeti Style @ level 2 knowing it requires BAB 9 or Monk lvl 5, due to taking elemental fist as my first level bonus feat and not having to meet other pre-reqs?

[Joe loves Rules]

There is actually some debate as to whether you don't get to ignore the prereqs for elemental fist or you don't get to ignore elemental fist as a prereq (the interpretation I lean towards), but either way you can indeed take efreeti style at level 2.

[Nothing]

Quote:

At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat.

Does the phrase after "except" mean an exception to the feat you are taking, or to the prerequisites of that feat (or both)?

I think it clearly is meant to apply to the Elemental Fist feat is still required as a prerequisite, otherwise a character would often have a feat that required expending uses of Elemental Fist when they had zero uses, which would be rather silly.

Some might claim it also means that you must meet all of the requirements of the Elemental Fist feat, but I don't think it was intended to say that (although I could well be wrong).

[ArtaXia]

Nothing wrote:

Quote:

At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat.[\quote]

Does the phrase after "except" mean an exception to the feat you are taking, or to the prerequisites of that feat (or both)?

I think it clearly is meant to apply to the Elemental Fist feat is still required as a prerequisite, otherwise a character would often have a feat that required expending uses of Elemental Fist when they had zero uses, which would be rather silly.

Some might claim it also means that you must meet all of the requirements of the Elemental Fist feat, but I don't think it was intended to say that (although I could well be wrong).

I don't think you understand what I am getting at so I will try to re-iterate my point.

As the sentences are structured it clearly states that you get to pick elemental fist as a bonus feat. The first sentence is telling you that you have TWO options form which you can pick from. at 1st, 2nd and every forth level you get to decide if you would like to take either a style feat or the elemental fist feat. "He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat" is telling you is that you don't have to meet the pre-req's for the style feats or the elemental fist feat, however you must have the elemental fist feats to pick any style feats which require it the reason for this is because it does not mention it to be a style feat specifically. Only after this sentence does it go on to talk about style feat progressions.

There should be no debate on this particular ruling as its cut and dry. However MY question is due to this FACT. ARE you able to pick a feat which PRE-REQ's MONK levels which are HIGHER then your own or are you NOT able to pick them until you meet the LEVEL requirement. I would appreciate it if someone could CLEAR this up for me.

[Joe loves Rules]

Again... Yes, you can ignore the monk level req.

[Nothing]

ArtaXia wrote:

ARE you able to pick a feat which PRE-REQ's MONK levels which are HIGHER then your own or are you NOT able to pick them until you meet the LEVEL requirement. I would appreciate it if someone could CLEAR...

This is not even an open question. The Monk level requirement is in the prereq section of the feat. When taking these bonus feats you ignore all prereqs (except for Elemental Fist).

You can even be a human and take the Earth Child Style, since the prereq of being a Gnome or Dwarf is ignored.

[Mojorat]

After looking it over for another thread I think if elemental fist is a prerequisite. It can't be ignored. The reason is the style feats with elemental fist need the feat to function.

However you get elemental fist as a. Bonus feat.

[Krodjin]

Mojorat wrote:

After looking it over for another thread I think if elemental fist is a prerequisite. It can't be ignored. The reason is the style feats with elemental fist need the feat to function.

However you get elemental fist as a. Bonus feat.

But there are other instances where a Monk is given an option that does not function, so in this instance I wouldn't rely on that as evidence of anything.

For example it actually suggests in the MoMs that a Monk can take the Earth Child feats, so long as they have Earth Child Style. One of the benefits of those feats is that the "Defensive Training" bonus increases... A human doesn't have defensive training, so presumably they can qualify and choose these feats, but they won't get any improvement to their defensive training...

Another example would be the Zen Archer bring able to select Rapid Shot & Manyshot as bonus feats; even though he/she cannot use them with a Flurry of Bows.

This is not to say I agree or disagree with you Mojorat - I'm just reiterating that being able to choose something that doesn't work isn't out of synch with other Paizo offerings.

[Nothing]

Krodjin wrote:

For example it actually suggests in the MoMs that a Monk can take the Earth Child feats, so long as they have Earth Child Style. One of the benefits of those feats is that the "Defensive Training" bonus increases... A human doesn't have defensive training, so presumably they can qualify and choose these feats, but they won't get any improvement to their defensive training...

I think that point is debatable, but there are many things that not having the ability to begin with does not prevent you from gaining a bonus to the previously non-existing stat, for example most humanoids have no natural armor, but still benefit from a +1 enhancement bonus to natural armor.

The flip side is gaining a point of some ability that can't be used, like an effect that gives +1 ki point to a character that can't spend ki. That character gains no benefit from the ki, because no ability allows him to use it.

I think this situation is closer to the first example than the second, but I agree that it's not crystal clear.