Sam Wilson aka The Falcon is the New Captain America

[Purple Dragon Knight]

It now strikes me that since Disney owns Marvel, there are no longer any reason why Howard the Duck and Donald Duck shouldn't be related, if not the same person. :)

[Sunderstone]

GreyWolfLord wrote:

Hated Damien though. His origin always felt sort of contrived to me, and didn't really like his character.

Yes and No.

In a way it was a logical thing to happen considering the Batman/Talia thing. If they skipped Jason Todd and Tim Drake, we all might have liked Damian more. I personally never liked Jason Todd's character, even more so as Red Hood. I could also do without Tim Drake, and would have rather had Damien in those shoes. Maybe Spoiler (one of DC's better sidekick/supporting characters) could have been better as a friend to Damien than Tim. She could have softened him gradually, and/or Damien could have corrupted her at the same time. Lot of lost potential there.

[thejeff]

Sunderstone wrote:

GreyWolfLord wrote:

Hated Damien though. His origin always felt sort of contrived to me, and didn't really like his character.

Yes and No.

In a way it was a logical thing to happen considering the Batman/Talia thing. If they skipped Jason Todd and Tim Drake, we all might have liked Damian more. I personally never liked Jason Todd's character, even more so as Red Hood. I could also do without Tim Drake, and would have rather had Damien in those shoes. Maybe Spoiler (one of DC's better sidekick/supporting characters) could have been better as a friend to Damien than Tim. She could have softened him gradually, and/or Damien could have corrupted her at the same time. Lot of lost potential there.

I really liked much of what they did with Damian. And always kind of liked Tim Drake too. Unlike Tim though, Damian was made for a specific story arc with an ending. Not just to be the new Robin. That let him be a very different character.

Damian and Tim weren't really close in anything I saw. Dick and Damian did bond and that was handled well.
Stephanie (as Batgirl) had at least one really nice issue with Damian. After the mandatory team-up, where he has to go undercover as an ordinary 10 year old schoolkid on a field trip, she tries to teach him to play, with mixed results.
Yeah, I would have liked to see more of them together.
But then New 52 and no more Stephanie.

[Kevin Mack]

thejeff wrote:

Sunderstone wrote:

GreyWolfLord wrote:

Hated Damien though. His origin always felt sort of contrived to me, and didn't really like his character.

Yes and No.

In a way it was a logical thing to happen considering the Batman/Talia thing. If they skipped Jason Todd and Tim Drake, we all might have liked Damian more. I personally never liked Jason Todd's character, even more so as Red Hood. I could also do without Tim Drake, and would have rather had Damien in those shoes. Maybe Spoiler (one of DC's better sidekick/supporting characters) could have been better as a friend to Damien than Tim. She could have softened him gradually, and/or Damien could have corrupted her at the same time. Lot of lost potential there.

I really liked much of what they did with Damian. And always kind of liked Tim Drake too. Unlike Tim though, Damian was made for a specific story arc with an ending. Not just to be the new Robin. That let him be a very different character.

Damian and Tim weren't really close in anything I saw. Dick and Damian did bond and that was handled well.
Stephanie (as Batgirl) had at least one really nice issue with Damian. After the mandatory team-up, where he has to go undercover as an ordinary 10 year old schoolkid on a field trip, she tries to teach him to play, with mixed results.
Yeah, I would have liked to see more of them together.
But then New 52 and no more Stephanie.

Stephanie is actually back now if I'm not mistaken.

[LazarX]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

so he got wings but no super soldier powers? this comic will be great! I can't wait for him to fly around town all day and scare bank robbers with his shadow!

Super Soldier powers basically consisted of better physical abilities than average and acting as a suspended animation serum when encased in ice.

The effects of the Super Soldier system on Steve Rogers have never been successfully duplicated.

There have been some variants, most of them bad, but no one has ever hit the lottery the way Rogers did when the formula was introduced into his body.

There have been at least three other Captain Americas without the serum, including Sam Wilson himself who has already done a brief tenure as the shield slinger. I do believe Captain America IV had a faulty version of the serum which permanently turned him and his Bucky into a fascist nutcase. As they became an embarrassment and a liability, they were both locked in freezing tubes for a decade or two.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

LazarX wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

so he got wings but no super soldier powers? this comic will be great! I can't wait for him to fly around town all day and scare bank robbers with his shadow!

Super Soldier powers basically consisted of better physical abilities than average and acting as a suspended animation serum when encased in ice.

The effects of the Super Soldier system on Steve Rogers have never been successfully duplicated.

There have been some variants, most of them bad, but no one has ever hit the lottery the way Rogers did when the formula was introduced into his body.

There have been at least three other Captain Americas without the serum, including Sam Wilson himself who has already done a brief tenure as the shield slinger. I do believe Captain America IV had a faulty version of the serum which permanently turned him and his Bucky into a fascist nutcase. As they became an embarrassment and a liability, they were both locked in freezing tubes for a decade or two.

thanks for the info, but I'm still not warming up to Sam Wilson as Cap... or to Sam Wilson as Sam Wilson, for that matter LOL

[Greylurker]

Is anyone else a little put out that they did this change just in time to turn Captain America evil with this whole Axis Inversion thing

[Kevin Mack]

Yeah that probably wasent the best timing on there part (Either for fans of the comic of for In universe reasons as well.)

[Grey Lensman]

Marvel always seems to follow a simple rule. Steve Rogers is never allowed to be on the wrong side.

[sunbeam]

Matthew Morris wrote:

I'm surprised to see you admit that Sam can't support his own book.

That is one of the problems with comics these days I think. Or maybe it is not a problem, just the way things are.

To explain what I mean by that, Sam Wilson as the Falcon... flies. That's about it. He also has a bond of sorts with his falcon (hence the name, and his original gimmick as a character besides being black and Cap's partner in the late 60's/early 70's).

That partnership worked pretty well for storytelling, just as the Green Arrow/Green Lantern one at DC did.

Now we have talked a little about the character. So why can't he support a book?

Rather than race I think it is because the character and his whole... angle is inherently boring to comic readers today.

They just don't care if the character can fly (which he has only been doing since the late 70's or something anyway). It's kind of expected. And they have less than zero interest in a telepathic bond with a bird or whatever it is.

A month or two ago there was a thread here about the Atom and Ryan Choi. The Atom has the same problem. He is just plain boring in a book. Someone who shrinks just doesn't have a wow factor anymore. All the stuff about controlling your mass just doesn't make the original premise any sexier.

Also I want to add that "mundane" characters like Batman and Captain America are almost aberrations now. Most readers prefer cosmic power like Superman, or great power to just plain elite normal humans like Bruce Wayne and comic book (non-Ultimate Cap, who was actually the power template for movie Cap, not 616 Steve Rogers).

You have to have a ton of history like both of those characters to keep fans reading them now. And a ton of company investment.

So no I don't think the Falcon or any character relatively mundane can support a book now. Look at all the trouble DC has had keeping Green Arrow and Hawkman going. I've lost track of all the restarts and tweaks.

What bugs me about this whole thing is it is cheap. They really don't have many "normal" characters that can stay in print, so they can't think of anything to do with Sam Wilson other than stick him into the same role Steve Rogers usually holds.

Besides being miffed at replacing Steve, I kind of think this highlights in a way some trends and issues with the comic industry as I've said.

Every few years someone does something like The Spirit, The Phantom, even Doc Savage. Usually it is some small volume house, the critics and stuff like Wizard like it, it gets talked about on boards, then it sells a small fraction of what Superman sells.

It peters out, till someone starts the cycle again.

[thejeff]

I find this amusing, considering the usual complaint that "Superman is boring cause of his powers, that's why Batman is so much more popular!"

[sunbeam]

thejeff wrote:

I find this amusing, considering the usual complaint that "Superman is boring cause of his powers, that's why Batman is so much more popular!"

I've never heard that about Superman. I have heard that they dialed his power up to not 11, but close to 100, which made him kind of boring.

It's a separate topic, but silver age planet moving Superman was kind of extreme. And yet plot wise he was always at the mercy of any yahoo who walked up to him with a lead box and lifted the lid to reveal...

Kryptonite!

Never mind that Superman could scan his surrounding for hundreds of miles a few times every second, looking for odd sized voids in his vision, like opaque things the size of ... boxes.

And it's not like he couldn't do that without missing a blink fighting Atomic Skull, reading the news, or whatever.

The guy could time travel without any equipment for god's sakes. Fly to Andromeda and be back before lunch. And take care of an alien invasion. All that and be back in time to meet Jimmy for coffee at the canteen.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Greylurker wrote:

Is anyone else a little put out that they did this change just in time to turn Captain America evil with this whole Axis Inversion thing

they're all evil now. so no one should infer anything about sam's character. My guess is they're being controlled by red skull. Note how magneto walked out on that little hate really the x-men did

[thejeff]

sunbeam wrote:

thejeff wrote:

I find this amusing, considering the usual complaint that "Superman is boring cause of his powers, that's why Batman is so much more popular!"

I've never heard that about Superman. I have heard that they dialed his power up to not 11, but close to 100, which made him kind of boring.

It's a separate topic, but silver age planet moving Superman was kind of extreme. And yet plot wise he was always at the mercy of any yahoo who walked up to him with a lead box and lifted the lid to reveal...

Kryptonite!

Never mind that Superman could scan his surrounding for hundreds of miles a few times every second, looking for odd sized voids in his vision, like opaque things the size of ... boxes.

And it's not like he couldn't do that without missing a blink fighting Atomic Skull, reading the news, or whatever.

The guy could time travel without any equipment for god's sakes. Fly to Andromeda and be back before lunch. And take care of an alien invasion. All that and be back in time to meet Jimmy for coffee at the canteen.

Pretty much that rant you just gave. Even if he's been toned down some since the seventies (or more accurately: Toned down a lot, then pumped back up part way. Several times.)

"Superman is boring because he's never in any real danger because he's so powerful he can just beat any threat up. Unless they use the Kryptonite gimmick. That's why Batman is so much more popular."

Which basically ignores that Superman really hasn't been handled that way in decades and also ignores that even if Batman is the most popular, Superman is close behind.
Both of them far outstripping most other characters, both unpowered and powered at various levels. I don't think there's any clear link between power level and popularity. Not in the short run, much less over time.

[Greylurker]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Greylurker wrote:

Is anyone else a little put out that they did this change just in time to turn Captain America evil with this whole Axis Inversion thing

they're all evil now. so no one should infer anything about sam's character. My guess is they're being controlled by red skull. Note how magneto walked out on that little hate really the x-men did

from my understanding everyone who was at the big fight got their personalities Inverted.

The aspects of themselves they try to suppress are now dominante and their normal personality traits are suppressed.

So Stark is now full force narcassistic drunk playboy capitalist
Thor is hedonistic barbarian without a trace of nobility
Loki is an honest careing brother
Dr. Doom has oppened his nation to democracy and would willingly sacrifice his own life to protect his citizens

and so on

[Purple Dragon Knight]

yes... what I like is that Magneto appears to be unaffected (helmet of protection vs. psionics?)

[Greylurker]

Magneto has always kind of bounced from Good to Evil on his own. Could have a natural tolerance to Forced Alingment Changes

[Purple Dragon Knight]

And the helmet! and the fact that the X-Men now want to do exactly what his young self wanted to do! he's the type who never goes with "what's cool these days" :)