Sam Wilson aka The Falcon is the New Captain America


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This, at least for me, is great news.

Liberty's Edge

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ShinHakkaider wrote:

This, at least for me, is great news.

It is awesome. I saw this this morning and am super excited. He just looks so cool!


Similarly to my take on the female Thor: I liked Steve Rogers. Steve Rogers is Captain America to me. Didn't we just go through a Replace Steve with someone else storyline? Do we have to do it again?

That said, if we do, Sam's a good choice. Having him take the role fits their long friendship well and I'm definitely tickled by the idea of a black Captain America. The outfit looks good as well.


thejeff wrote:

Similarly to my take on the female Thor: I liked Steve Rogers. Steve Rogers is Captain America to me. Didn't we just go through a Replace Steve with someone else storyline? Do we have to do it again?

That said, if we do, Sam's a good choice. Having him take the role fits their long friendship well and I'm definitely tickled by the idea of a black Captain America. The outfit looks good as well.

If by "just" you mean 2010 because that's when Steve got the mantle back from Bucky aka The Winter Soldier. It doesn't seem that long ago but it was almost 4 years ago that this happened.

Dark Archive

Would be more excited if I thought it would last more than between either a few months or a couple of years at best.


does Steve Rogers become Falcon then?


I still say bring back Battlestar. But yeah, I could see Sam as Captain America.


I, for one, welcome Captain Falcon.


I wonder if he is going to punch anybody....


Or maybe have a nice lunch?


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He's a decent replacement (unlike someone like John Walker). I wonder, though, how long it will last before Steve is back in the saddle.


ShinHakkaider wrote:

This, at least for me, is great news.

Looks neat. Is he the guy from the latest Captain America movie?

Also, how does taking over as Captain America work? Is it just costume + name + bring-your-own-powers-to-work-day? Or do they have spare supersoldier serum lying around?

Dark Archive

Slaunyeh wrote:
Also, how does taking over as Captain America work? Is it just costume + name + bring-your-own-powers-to-work-day?

There've been a few men under the mask, over the years. Some did indeed have super-soldier serum derived powers, one of the more notorious ones had super-strength from a 'Power Broker' who would basically super-steroid people for an extreme wrestling federations (with a high rate of never-to-be-seen-again 'failures' who got a side-effect of freakish monstrosity to go with their super-strength). At least one didn't have any powers at all (although he did have a spiffy bionic arm).

A Captain America who can fly (and communicate with / control birds telepathically, a power he didn't demonstrate in the movies, and upgraded from an original base of 'has a mental link with his falcon') seems like a neat way to mix it up.

Unlike Thor, which is the dude's actual name and not something one would normally take and hand to someone else taking over the job, pretty much anyone can be Captain America, and there have been times when the government wanted someone more in line with current policies 'representing America' and fired Steve and put someone else in the costume.

Silver Crusade

magnuskn wrote:
He's a decent replacement (unlike someone like John Walker). I wonder, though, how long it will last before Steve is back in the saddle.

Lets give it a year, iconic characters usually revert somehow. Just look at the Avengers under the control of Norman Osborn.

Set wrote:
Slaunyeh wrote:
Also, how does taking over as Captain America work? Is it just costume + name + bring-your-own-powers-to-work-day?

There've been a few men under the mask, over the years. Some did indeed have super-soldier serum derived powers, one of the more notorious ones had super-strength from a 'Power Broker' who would basically super-steroid people for an extreme wrestling federations (with a high rate of never-to-be-seen-again 'failures' who got a side-effect of freakish monstrosity to go with their super-strength). At least one didn't have any powers at all (although he did have a spiffy bionic arm).

A Captain America who can fly (and communicate with / control birds telepathically, a power he didn't demonstrate in the movies, and upgraded from an original base of 'has a mental link with his falcon') seems like a neat way to mix it up.

Unlike Thor, which is the dude's actual name and not something one would normally take and hand to someone else taking over the job, pretty much anyone can be Captain America, and there have been times when the government wanted someone more in line with current policies 'representing America' and fired Steve and put someone else in the costume.

The superpowers of Steve Rodger aren’t all that impressive (well within that world) but he was a very experienced fighter, with the ability to inspire others. So replacing his power profile within a group won’t be a huge challenge. Replacing the man who personifies the virtues of the USA, well thats another matter, but it’s not like he hasn’t been killed before.

Thor is another case since he has a distinct secondary personality (the movies really ignore that bit) and as the hammer says ““Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor” “

I am really curious who will be the next Thor, my money is on Valkyrie

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I've heard this called 'Capman Beyond' because Sam's in the suit, but Steve will be 'at home' in radio contact. AKA Terry and Bruce's relationship.

Like thejeff, I see Steve Rogers as Cap. Not just the serum and the suit, but the personality of Steve. The movies have really emphasized that aspect as well.

Cap loses his costume/powers every 5-10 years. Like Wolverine and his healing factor. Steve will wear the costume again.

I like Sam, but I like him in his own costume. Steve is Cap, Rhodey is War Machine, Sam is Falcon, and Dick is Nightwing.

Now if Marvel really wanted to 'mix things up' let's take a white farmer in Zimbabwe who lost his home to Mugabe's thugs and have him become king of Wakanda...


I generally prefer this mantle change, like what was done with Ultimate Spiderman. Too bad it'll only last for a year tops before they bring back Steve.


Matthew Morris wrote:

I've heard this called 'Capman Beyond' because Sam's in the suit, but Steve will be 'at home' in radio contact. AKA Terry and Bruce's relationship.

Like thejeff, I see Steve Rogers as Cap. Not just the serum and the suit, but the personality of Steve. The movies have really emphasized that aspect as well.

Cap loses his costume/powers every 5-10 years. Like Wolverine and his healing factor. Steve will wear the costume again.

I like Sam, but I like him in his own costume. Steve is Cap, Rhodey is War Machine, Sam is Falcon, and Dick is Nightwing.

Now if Marvel really wanted to 'mix things up' let's take a white farmer in Zimbabwe who lost his home to Mugabe's thugs and have him become king of Wakanda...

How did I know you would go in this direction?

Sam in his costume is all well and good, but ensures he will remain a side-kick with no title of his own beyond a limited series. An eternal second banana getting a pat on the back every now and again. Which seems to be how you like it.


Freehold DM wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

I've heard this called 'Capman Beyond' because Sam's in the suit, but Steve will be 'at home' in radio contact. AKA Terry and Bruce's relationship.

Like thejeff, I see Steve Rogers as Cap. Not just the serum and the suit, but the personality of Steve. The movies have really emphasized that aspect as well.

Cap loses his costume/powers every 5-10 years. Like Wolverine and his healing factor. Steve will wear the costume again.

I like Sam, but I like him in his own costume. Steve is Cap, Rhodey is War Machine, Sam is Falcon, and Dick is Nightwing.

Now if Marvel really wanted to 'mix things up' let's take a white farmer in Zimbabwe who lost his home to Mugabe's thugs and have him become king of Wakanda...

How did I know you would go in this direction?

Sam in his costume is all well and good, but ensures he will remain a side-kick with no title of his own beyond a limited series. An eternal second banana getting a pat on the back every now and again. Which seems to be how you like it.

And Sam as Cap ensures he'll be a temporary replacement, to be kicked back to Falcon status in a year or so. Sam's cool and it'll be interesting to see his take on the role, but Steve is Captain America.

Though I have to admit, it would be great to see him as Cap in a movie, just to watch bigot's heads spin.


Honestly, one of the reasons I can't stand comics these days is the inability for the creators to change up super heroes. Or really, change anything for longer than, say, a year. I've been waiting for Dick Grayson to take the mantle of Batman for a long time. Nothing ever changes and when they do, they wait for it to make waves and get publicity, then change things back to the status quo. I blame the fans partially for why comics are so stagnant. I wish they were more ballsy. More experimental. Given the fact that they continuously publish things and their comic runs generall have no end, they have to do something to keep the world interesting. Keep dead characters dead for Christ sake. I liked the Peter Parker death in Ultimate Spiderman. Moving on to a new character allows more stories to be told that you may not have gotten with the previous character. I don't care if the new character is a different race, gender, upbringing, or even the same. I feel that change could help tell a different and still compelling story. Which I feel Ultimate Spiderman has done and Captain America could have done with Bucky, and now Falcon.

Too bad this is just a publicity stunt and the status quo will be maintained in a year or so. That's why I don't take these announcements so seriously and why I'll stick with graphic novels. At least with those, when they get to a point in the story where things can't really change, they end.

Want a good comic? Read Fables.


Odraude wrote:

Honestly, one of the reasons I can't stand comics these days is the inability for the creators to change up super heroes. Or really, change anything for longer than, say, a year. I've been waiting for Dick Grayson to take the mantle of Batman for a long time. Nothing ever changes and when they do, they wait for it to make waves and get publicity, then change things back to the status quo. I blame the fans partially for why comics are so stagnant. I wish they were more ballsy. More experimental. Given the fact that they continuously publish things and their comic runs generall have no end, they have to do something to keep the world interesting. Keep dead characters dead for Christ sake. I liked the Peter Parker death in Ultimate Spiderman. Moving on to a new character allows more stories to be told that you may not have gotten with the previous character. I don't care if the new character is a different race, gender, upbringing, or even the same. I feel that change could help tell a different and still compelling story. Which I feel Ultimate Spiderman has done and Captain America could have done with Bucky, and now Falcon.

Too bad this is just a publicity stunt and the status quo will be maintained in a year or so. That's why I don't take these announcements so seriously and why I'll stick with graphic novels. At least with those, when they get to a point in the story where things can't really change, they end.

Want a good comic? Read Fables.

I read Fables. And BPRD/Hellboy. And Astro City. And a dozen other things far from the mainstream universes. But I still enjoy standard superhero fare as well.

You're complaining about what superhero comics are. And always have been. And think about it: If comics were the way you want, unless you're much older than me, not only would you never have seen Bruce Wayne as Batman before he retired, but you wouldn't seen Dick as Batman either. Except maybe in old classic reprints. Same for all of DC's classic heroes. Or, being DC we'd still be reading stories about variants of the same characters on their 17th universe reboot. Which doesn't solve the problem of waiting for Dick to take the mantle of Batman. He should have done so and probably passed it on to his successor before I started reading comics.

We'd pretty much have lost all the classic Marvel heroes and Silver Age DC ones by now too. Those at least I would have gotten the chance to see.

Just accept it. It's the way super-hero comics work. Or don't and stop reading them.

I'm also not anywhere near so convinced they're just publicity stunts. Maybe some are. Maybe some are just creators wanting to tell a cool story, even knowing it isn't a permanent change. Some a a mixture of both.
I loved Grant Morrison's take on Dick Grayson as Batman (and I really loved the dynamic between him and Damian. Such a neat reversal of the standard Batman/Robin thing). I knew it wasn't permanent. So what. It was still a good read.


I don't read them anymore because I don't like wasting my time and money on temporary life-shattering events. I like super hero comics, but the writers should accept what they are and not try to shake things up so-called life shattering events that are just going to be reversed in a year. That's my problem with them. If they want to keeping having the same person as the center of the story, that's fine. But suddenly proclaiming that "Thor's a girl now and Falcon is Captain America" then reversing it seems like a pointless and cheap way of getting publicity.

And publicity stunt or not, we gotta face the facts that in a year or two, this will be reversed and Steve will be Captain America. Just like how Captain America and Superman "died", and just like pretty much any other major happening that ended up getting reversed.


Odraude wrote:

I don't read them anymore because I don't like wasting my time and money on temporary life-shattering events. I like super hero comics, but the writers should accept what they are and not try to shake things up so-called life shattering events that are just going to be reversed in a year. That's my problem with them. If they want to keeping having the same person as the center of the story, that's fine. But suddenly proclaiming that "Thor's a girl now and Falcon is Captain America" then reversing it seems like a pointless and cheap way of getting publicity.

And publicity stunt or not, we gotta face the facts that in a year or two, this will be reversed and Steve will be Captain America. Just like how Captain America and Superman "died", and just like pretty much any other major happening that ended up getting reversed.

Yeah. They will. That's cool with me. I know it'll happen. How do we get there? Does it make a good story? That's what mattes.

I also don't expect every time the world is threatened in a comic, that there's chance that this time the heroes will lose, the world will be destroyed and all the titles will be canceled because everyone is dead. :)


I guess. I just feel that this is a cheap scheme to grab people, instead of actually having a popular and positive female role model (for Thor) or a positive black role model (for Captain America). Make it look like you are appealing to us long enough to get new customers, then switch back to keep your current fans. That bothers me.


Odraude wrote:

Honestly, one of the reasons I can't stand comics these days is the inability for the creators to change up super heroes. Or really, change anything for longer than, say, a year. I've been waiting for Dick Grayson to take the mantle of Batman for a long time. Nothing ever changes and when they do, they wait for it to make waves and get publicity, then change things back to the status quo. I blame the fans partially for why comics are so stagnant. I wish they were more ballsy. More experimental. Given the fact that they continuously publish things and their comic runs generall have no end, they have to do something to keep the world interesting. Keep dead characters dead for Christ sake. I liked the Peter Parker death in Ultimate Spiderman. Moving on to a new character allows more stories to be told that you may not have gotten with the previous character. I don't care if the new character is a different race, gender, upbringing, or even the same. I feel that change could help tell a different and still compelling story. Which I feel Ultimate Spiderman has done and Captain America could have done with Bucky, and now Falcon.

Too bad this is just a publicity stunt and the status quo will be maintained in a year or so. That's why I don't take these announcements so seriously and why I'll stick with graphic novels. At least with those, when they get to a point in the story where things can't really change, they end.

Want a good comic? Read Fables.

I disagree. I think one of the biggest problems comics have now are the continual publicity stunts and shocking swerves (or just bad plot twist in general) they try and throw in them. A little behind that I would add in all the reboots, crisis, retcons, bringing people back to life, resetting the comics so there is a #1 issue each couple of years, and super crossovers. Now we could probably add agenda pushing for it's own sake, or the sake of PR and marketing. I was turned of comics about 20 years ago and the industry has shown me they have done nothing but get worse over that time. About the only improvement is they don't have shiny foil covers anymore, and they somewhat got off the darker and grittier stuff, at least a little bit anyhow.

If it's not broke don't fix it. I would also say that iconic characters in our culture are iconic for a reason. If you change them they are no longer so. It's the same reason coloring the Statue of Liberty a bright neon orange color to be more hip to the new generations would be a bad idea. It's something that's iconic and a part of us like some comic characters are. Some comic characters should just be what they are because what they are is what makes them great.

I think it's true that comics of the past and today had and have some problems with diversity and treating female characters wrong. I don't have a problems changing that all things being equal and when they do it a right way which I don't think they are doing. That's fixing a flaw they had in the past. On the other hand decades ago they also had a winning formula. Basically it amounted to: good guy being good and being the character they were, fighting against bad guys doing bad stuff, through struggle, skill and determination overcoming the bad guys even when the odds where stacked against them, and then they would have incremental character growth over time and more relationships with other people that added to and enhanced the characters they already where to make them better, and not tried to change them. It worked for a long time and for the most part I think the stories were good and created a lot of people we still love today, even after the industry tries everything in it’s power to mess things up and makes some hate what a lot of people once loved.

The problem is they experiment too much already. If they want new things they should create new people that fit what they want if it's leads to something quality. It’s like at some point they just forgot about all the great things they already had that worked. At best they have tried way too hard, and at worse and more likely they had something good and like most good things milked it for all it was worth to wring the most money out of it.


While I can certainly agree on the tired publicity stunts, I don't think they should stop experimenting. If they just continue with the same rehashed story time after with the same characters, it gets boring. At this point, I don't even see much in the way of incremental character growth. And it sucks when the experimentation is undermined a year later, since it makes it seem like that's a failure. That's ultimately one of the biggest problems. They experiment but don't stick with it. And usually, their experimentation is a half-baked scheme to grab some cash. "You know what would be cool? Let's kill Captain America and bring him back hurr durr."

I'm not saying they should replace all the current characters. I'd like to see new characters stand on their own, even with the little faith I have in the average comic book consumer and the comic industry. I just want these announced changes to actually have some long term effects and meaning. Remember how cool Knightfall was? Or Secret Wars? Remember the consequences Spiderman had with the Black Spidey Suit? That was brilliant! It was awesome! It was an actual universe changing event that had the lasting consequence of giving Spiderman one of his greatest villains. I'll even admit that the more recent DC arc of Darkest Night was a good way of handling life shattering events. If they put more thought into these types of things than they do now, I might actually get back into reading again.


Odraude wrote:

While I can certainly agree on the tired publicity stunts, I don't think they should stop experimenting. If they just continue with the same rehashed story time after with the same characters, it gets boring. At this point, I don't even see much in the way of incremental character growth. And it sucks when the experimentation is undermined a year later, since it makes it seem like that's a failure. That's ultimately one of the biggest problems. They experiment but don't stick with it. And usually, their experimentation is a half-baked scheme to grab some cash. "You know what would be cool? Let's kill Captain America and bring him back hurr durr."

I'm not saying they should replace all the current characters. I'd like to see new characters stand on their own, even with the little faith I have in the average comic book consumer and the comic industry. I just want these announced changes to actually have some long term effects and meaning. Remember how cool Knightfall was? Or Secret Wars? Remember the consequences Spiderman had with the Black Spidey Suit? That was brilliant! It was awesome! It was an actual universe changing event that had the lasting consequence of giving Spiderman one of his greatest villains. I'll even admit that the more recent DC arc of Darkest Night was a good way of handling life shattering events. If they put more thought into these types of things than they do now, I might actually get back into reading again.

Of course, Knightfall was just another, let's (temporarily) cripple Batman so we can have a replacement for awhile storyline. It's the exact same thing you're complaining about, except that you liked it. I'm not even sure what long term changes came out of that.

Or back in Secret Wars, if the biggest long term effect of a story on that scale is adding one more Spidey villain, then I think we're seeing similar changes in a lot of the current events.

Obviously we can't tell at this point what long term effects will come out of the Falcon as Cap story (or the female Thor story) and it will obviously depend somewhat on fan reactions. I guarantee no one had Venom in mind when they introduced Spidey's black costume. The storyline where it would try to take him over sure, but not the rest of it.


I think Venom was part of the plan. Agent Venom however...


Snorri Nosebiter wrote:
I think Venom was part of the plan. Agent Venom however...

Given that 4 years and several different writers passed between the symbiote's introduction and Venom, I doubt it very much.

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Freehold DM wrote:

How did I know you would go in this direction?

Sam in his costume is all well and good, but ensures he will remain a side-kick with no title of his own beyond a limited series. An eternal second banana getting a pat on the back every now and again. Which seems to be how you like it.

*Yawn* Given that I've collected War Machine and enjoyed the book and not Iron Man, clearly you don't know me at all.

I'm surprised to see you admit that Sam can't support his own book.

I'm just arguing for the same diversity we're seeing in yet another 'not Steve as Cap' storyline and 'Not Thor as Thor.' What's wrong with diversity?

(aside, I was irritated about the change in Batwing even though I don't collect the book. Making 'the Batman of Africa' an American seemed to defeat the purpose.)


thejeff wrote:
Odraude wrote:

While I can certainly agree on the tired publicity stunts, I don't think they should stop experimenting. If they just continue with the same rehashed story time after with the same characters, it gets boring. At this point, I don't even see much in the way of incremental character growth. And it sucks when the experimentation is undermined a year later, since it makes it seem like that's a failure. That's ultimately one of the biggest problems. They experiment but don't stick with it. And usually, their experimentation is a half-baked scheme to grab some cash. "You know what would be cool? Let's kill Captain America and bring him back hurr durr."

I'm not saying they should replace all the current characters. I'd like to see new characters stand on their own, even with the little faith I have in the average comic book consumer and the comic industry. I just want these announced changes to actually have some long term effects and meaning. Remember how cool Knightfall was? Or Secret Wars? Remember the consequences Spiderman had with the Black Spidey Suit? That was brilliant! It was awesome! It was an actual universe changing event that had the lasting consequence of giving Spiderman one of his greatest villains. I'll even admit that the more recent DC arc of Darkest Night was a good way of handling life shattering events. If they put more thought into these types of things than they do now, I might actually get back into reading again.

Of course, Knightfall was just another, let's (temporarily) cripple Batman so we can have a replacement for awhile storyline. It's the exact same thing you're complaining about, except that you liked it. I'm not even sure what long term changes came out of that.

Or back in Secret Wars, if the biggest long term effect of a story on that scale is adding one more Spidey villain, then I think we're seeing similar changes in a lot of the current events.

Obviously we can't tell at this point what long term effects will come out of the Falcon as Cap...

With Knightfall it wasn't "Let's kill Batman and replace him with someone else" shock and awe you see with Captain America. it was "Batman get's crippled, he overcomes it, and now has to deal with the guy who replaced him who has literally gone insane." There wasn't a "Batman is dead" followed by them taking it back. The whole point of the story was to see the recover of Bruce Wayne in addition to the craziness that was his replacement, culminating in a final showdown between the two.

That is much better story telling than "Hey guys, let's kill Captain America and bring him back a year and a half later. What a twist!" Hell, I don't even remember a big thing about Knightfall until after it happened, when people were going "Holy s&~#, Batman!" I still remember the shock of DC just doing it, rather than drawing out the publicity of his broken back. Not like what they did with Superman in the 90's. At least they got rid of his mullet. So yeah, Knightfall is a very different beast.

As for Spider-man, it wasn't just any old villain they added. They added a very memorable villain that matched (if not exceed) Green Goblin in terms of being THE quintessential villain of Spider-man. The symbiote storyline was awesome, very well-written, and sky-rocketed Venom as one of Spider-man's greatest rivals. So Venom is about as much "just a villain" as Joker or Lex Luthor are "just villains".

There were other effects for Secret Wars, but I honestly don't recall them. It was almost another lifetime ago.

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Knightfall was also a "Let's show people how much a 90's Batman would suck." Kind of like how John Walker was a "Let's show why it's Steve Rogers that makes Captain America."

I'd hope that the intent is 'Dick Grayson is a different Batman than Batman.'


Matthew Morris wrote:

Knightfall was also a "Let's show people how much a 90's Batman would suck." Kind of like how John Walker was a "Let's show why it's Steve Rogers that makes Captain America."

I'd hope that the intent is 'Dick Grayson is a different Batman than Batman.'

While I don't know if that was their point, I am glad to see the proper Batman win out. 90's was a rough time for comics in many ways. Most than just the Punisher wannabes and Rob Leifeld. :)


Actually if I recall the KnightFall/Quest/End motivation, it was largely "OK you people have been asking for tougher more violent Batman, let's show you why that's a bad idea." The letters columns at the time were interesting.

The Death of Superman, while more publicized, also led to the introduction of Steel, the new Superboy, the destruction of Coast City, which led to Hal Jordan going mad and all sorts of other consequences.

And as I said above, Venom came years after Secret Wars from what was essentially a minor detail in the storyline.

But, you could sum up Knightfall as "Hey guys, let's cripple Batman and bring him back a year and a half later. What a twist!" Or the Death of Superman as "Hey guys, let's kill Superman and bring him back a year and a half later. What a twist!" It wouldn't do justice to the stories, but it would be true.

I didn't follow much of the recent death of Cap storyline and obviously don't know the details of the Falcon storyline, but I suspect "Hey guys, let's kill Captain America and bring him back a year and a half later. What a twist!" is about as fair as those were.

The recent death of Batman certainly couldn't be fairly summarized that way.


Matthew Morris wrote:
I'd hope that the intent is 'Dick Grayson is a different Batman than Batman.'

As I said above, the best thing about the Dick Grayson Batman was Batman and Robin. The grim serious ultraviolent (10 year old) Robin with a much lighter joking Batman was a wonderful inversion of the traditional relationship.

And watching the two of them slowly bond was very well done.


This change doesn't bother as much as the changes to Thor for a few reasons. First, whether or not you like the story, it's hard to deny that the seeds of if have been there a long, long time, unlike with Thor, where they just seem to randomly hand the hammer off to anybody they can think of with no real clear justification of it in the story itself, which works once or twice, but is really starting to get really dry and old. Second, they are actually replacing Steve Rogers and clearly staying within the existing Captain America storyline, whereas with Thor, it feels more like a dry run at launching a new character without actually taking the effort to launch the new character in a way that would secure that character it's own spot in the Marvel universe, all the while writing about the old Thor at the same time.

In the end, the changes to Thor just feel more forced than the changes to Captain America. That isn't to say that the Captain America story will end up being better, just that it feels like a far better buildup to the change than the comparatively cheap cop out they keep using with Thor. With Captain America, they seem to understand how far they can go before causing permanent damage; with Thor, they seem to have kept going beyond the point where story could cover all the holes they are creating.


sunshadow21 wrote:

This change doesn't bother as much as the changes to Thor for a few reasons. First, whether or not you like the story, it's hard to deny that the seeds of if have been there a long, long time, unlike with Thor, where they just seem to randomly hand the hammer off to anybody they can think of with no real clear justification of it in the story itself, which works once or twice, but is really starting to get really dry and old. Second, they are actually replacing Steve Rogers and clearly staying within the existing Captain America storyline, whereas with Thor, it feels more like a dry run at launching a new character without actually taking the effort to launch the new character in a way that would secure that character it's own spot in the Marvel universe, all the while writing about the old Thor at the same time.

In the end, the changes to Thor just feel more forced than the changes to Captain America. That isn't to say that the Captain America story will end up being better, just that it feels like a far better buildup to the change than the comparatively cheap cop out they keep using with Thor. With Captain America, they seem to understand how far they can go before causing permanent damage; with Thor, they seem to have kept going beyond the point where story could cover all the holes they are creating.

Aren't you really just basing this on the press release telling us it's Falcon and not telling us who the female Thor is?

I mean, we don't know yet how either change will be set up, do we?


thejeff wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:

This change doesn't bother as much as the changes to Thor for a few reasons. First, whether or not you like the story, it's hard to deny that the seeds of if have been there a long, long time, unlike with Thor, where they just seem to randomly hand the hammer off to anybody they can think of with no real clear justification of it in the story itself, which works once or twice, but is really starting to get really dry and old. Second, they are actually replacing Steve Rogers and clearly staying within the existing Captain America storyline, whereas with Thor, it feels more like a dry run at launching a new character without actually taking the effort to launch the new character in a way that would secure that character it's own spot in the Marvel universe, all the while writing about the old Thor at the same time.

In the end, the changes to Thor just feel more forced than the changes to Captain America. That isn't to say that the Captain America story will end up being better, just that it feels like a far better buildup to the change than the comparatively cheap cop out they keep using with Thor. With Captain America, they seem to understand how far they can go before causing permanent damage; with Thor, they seem to have kept going beyond the point where story could cover all the holes they are creating.

Aren't you really just basing this on the press release telling us it's Falcon and not telling us who the female Thor is?

I mean, we don't know yet how either change will be set up, do we?

We actually do know how Captain America's is set up aside from the hyper specific details. Likewise, we knew in advance how the death of Peter Parker would setup the new ultimate Spider Man, at least as far as the general plot was concerned. "Someone else takes over the hammer" is thin at the best of times, and even thinner when you look at how Marvel has often publicized such changes. Add in the fact that it's clearly recycled, and it's easier to understand a lot of the skepticism over that particular change and how they are going about it. The switchout for Captain America, on the other hand, actually has a solid premise to it that is actively supported by existing material. The switchout with Thor may end up being the better one, but they will have to create a fair bit of material to explain and support it well.

There also really isn't a go to character to simply hand it off to in Thor's case; there are a few that are close, but none really primed for it as far as I know. With Captain America, there actually is, making the transition a lot easier overall.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Snorri Nosebiter wrote:
does Steve Rogers become Falcon then?

No he becomes Guy with a Ninety Year Old Body Sitting On the Sidelines Man. The old guy with a cane? that's Rogers with the loss of his Super Soldier serum.


I like the picture. At least I liked it more until I realized he had two of those wing things. The one on the not-shield-strapped arm looked like a really cool wing-blade weapony thing perfect for matching with a shield. Still a Cap America that can also fly? Cool.

[note - not an avid Captain America or Falcon fan. I have heard of the former and never the latter.]


Matthew Morris wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

How did I know you would go in this direction?

Sam in his costume is all well and good, but ensures he will remain a side-kick with no title of his own beyond a limited series. An eternal second banana getting a pat on the back every now and again. Which seems to be how you like it.

*Yawn* Given that I've collected War Machine and enjoyed the book and not Iron Man, clearly you don't know me at all.

I'm surprised to see you admit that Sam can't support his own book.

I'm just arguing for the same diversity we're seeing in yet another 'not Steve as Cap' storyline and 'Not Thor as Thor.' What's wrong with diversity?

(aside, I was irritated about the change in Batwing even though I don't collect the book. Making 'the Batman of Africa' an American seemed to defeat the purpose.)

Cover your mouth when you yawn- War Machine lasted only 12 issues. Still a limited series. Are you reading Iron Man 2.0?

I maintain that you're still encouraging a second banana/sidekick treatment of black characters with an eye towards replacing them with white characters at the earliest opportunity- this isn't the first time you've made the White Panther "joke" if it is indeed a joke.

Of course Sam can't hold down his own book- he's never been on his own as a superhero beyond a token black character- has he even been given his own limited series? This has been quietly encouraged by the mostly white fanbase of Captain America. Are they all bigots who want Sam out of the uniform for the color of his skin alone? No, but I doubt they would buy a Falcon comic book if it came out, and will loudly clamor for Sam to not be Captain America, as you are now. It's not bigotry as much as a stubborn ignorant segregation to keep a black character in their place- far, far beneath that of the great white hero. That you maintain this attitude- perhaps out of ignorance- and then clamor for diversity is worrysome. To paraphrase a movie I hate, I don't think that word means what you think it means.


Freehold DM wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

How did I know you would go in this direction?

Sam in his costume is all well and good, but ensures he will remain a side-kick with no title of his own beyond a limited series. An eternal second banana getting a pat on the back every now and again. Which seems to be how you like it.

I'm surprised to see you admit that Sam can't support his own book.

I'm just arguing for the same diversity we're seeing in yet another 'not Steve as Cap' storyline and 'Not Thor as Thor.' What's wrong with diversity?

I maintain that you're still encouraging a second banana/sidekick treatment of black characters with an eye towards replacing them with white characters at the earliest opportunity- this isn't the first time you've made the White Panther "joke" if it is indeed a joke.

Of course Sam can't hold down his own book- he's never been on his own as a superhero beyond a token black character- has he even been given his own limited series? This has been quietly encouraged by the mostly white fanbase of Captain America. Are they all bigots who want Sam out of the uniform for the color of his skin alone? No, but I doubt they would buy a Falcon comic book if it came out, and will loudly clamor for Sam to not be Captain America, as you are now. It's not bigotry as much as a stubborn ignorant segregation to keep a black character in their place- far, far beneath that of the great white hero. That you maintain this attitude- perhaps out of ignorance- and then clamor for diversity is worrysome. To paraphrase a movie I hate, I don't think that word...

In fairness, most characters can't hold down their own books. Black, white, male, female, former sidekick or original hero. It's hard to get a new superhero enough traction for a long term book.

I doubt Steve Rogers could hold his own book, if it didn't have the Captain America label splashed all over it.

That said, I probably wouldn't buy Falcon book regularly. I'm also not buying the Cap book now and probably won't pick it up when Sam takes over as Cap. For me it depends almost entirely on the writer and there aren't a lot I'm willing to follow.


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Freehold DM wrote:
To paraphrase a movie I hate, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

I think I'm supposed to demand your gamer credentials after this. ;P


Grey Lensman wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
To paraphrase a movie I hate, I don't think that word means what you think it means.
I think I'm supposed to demand your gamer credentials after this. ;P

I understand the desire, but I was burned out badly on that movie after a summer in high school- it was the ONLY film my diverse group of friends could agree on so it was watched every Saturday.

Every.

Saturday.

EVERY.

SATURDAY.

I used to be able to quote vast swatches of the movie from memory, but I'm not as young as I used to be. For a while, I could act out scenes on my own.


Freehold DM wrote:
Grey Lensman wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
To paraphrase a movie I hate, I don't think that word means what you think it means.
I think I'm supposed to demand your gamer credentials after this. ;P

I understand the desire, but I was burned out badly on that movie after a summer in high school- it was the ONLY film my diverse group of friends could agree on so it was watched every Saturday.

Every.

Saturday.

EVERY.

SATURDAY.

I used to be able to quote vast swatches of the movie from memory, but I'm not as young as I used to be. For a while, I could act out scenes on my own.

If they watched that movie every Saturday without switching up?

THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS.


Freehold DM wrote:


Of course Sam can't hold down his own book- he's never been on his own as a superhero beyond a token black character- has he even been given his own limited series?

Falcon did have his own 4 issue limited series in the early 80's! The first issue was drawn by Paul Smith and I think the rest were by mark Bright. It was written by Jim Owsley who would later be known by the name Christopher Priest. The same Christopher Priest who would go on the write great runs on Power Man and Iron Fist, the Ray, and Black Panther.

I only know this because I collected and read it as a kid but it was thrown out along with the rest of my collection at the time by my dad. I just recently found fairly pristine copies of the entire series at Heroes Con in NC this past June. SCORE!!


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I think it's pretty cool to tell the truth. It may even be a reason to start picking up Cap America.

AS for Dick Grayson as Batman...that was pretty awesome...and cool.

Hated Damien though. His origin always felt sort of contrived to me, and didn't really like his character.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

so he got wings but no super soldier powers? this comic will be great! I can't wait for him to fly around town all day and scare bank robbers with his shadow!

Sovereign Court

/sarcasm off

(I've been into Marvel comics all my life and I just can't get invested in the falcon, sorry... he's one of the most boring characters IMO... I would have cheered if Howard the Duck would have taken the mantle, however...)


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

/sarcasm off

(I've been into Marvel comics all my life and I just can't get invested in the falcon, sorry... he's one of the most boring characters IMO... I would have cheered if Howard the Duck would have taken the mantle, however...)

Well then you'll be happy to know that Original Sin has revealed that

Howard is :
nearly as smart as Reed Richards... but also "the greatest example of wasted potential in the whole galaxy.".
Sovereign Court

Howard also:

Major Movie plot spoiler for a Major Marvel movie opening tomorrow:
...has a cameo in Guardians of the Galaxy! :)

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