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Hello again, all.
Since I got such wonderful help with my last topic concerning a "Wand of Gallant Inspiration" in conjunction with readied actions, I figured I'd present another product of my "help the party" brainstorming sessions.
I was looking through available ways to deal with Incorporeal creatures. A +1 Ghost-Touch Scorpion Whip was my first option.
But upon further research, I spotted the "Anchoring" magic weapon property. In its description, it specifies that Anchoring does not work on Incorporeal creatures unless the weapon also has the Ghost Touch Property.
So I had the "+1 Ghost-Touch, Anchoring" Part...Now I needed a weapon to strap it to that wouldn't put me out anything if I let it go.
Then I discovered the Snag Net. Increased DC for concentration...higher Break DC, hinders the target, and it deals an extra point of damage. At least, this is how it looks on paper.
That's where you guys come in. I've got a few questions concerning this idea:
1. I'm pretty sure this item will cost 32,000 gold. Is this correct?
2. Will the +1 Weapon enhancement add to the damage the net does while it is entangling a foe? (Making it 2 damage)
3. If I wanted to put Undead-Bane on it later, would that Bane Damage be applied to the net as well?
4. Will the Anchoring Property prevent the incorporeal creature from TELEPORTING? (This is the most important deal-breaking question. I am not plunking down $32,000 for something that can be escaped from so easily)
5. Does this even work the way I'm envisioning it? (Anchoring the Incorporeal in place for the other heroes to wail on it while it struggles to move and cast spells.)
Please help me to discover whether or not this is a good investment. Thank you. ^.^
Pretty sure you'd have to add Phase Locking:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abil ities/phase-locking
IS Anchoring +2? Then yes, 32k. Note you don't need Anchoring unless you think the thing can teleport. Incorporeals generally don't have a strength score, and a ghost touch net will lock them right down.
I don't think nets normally do damage, you'd have to put hooks on it. If you did so, then yes, undead bane would work normally on it. Generally, you're probably just as well off putting flaming or something on it so you catch them and then simply watch them burn.
MM. A +1 Ghost Touch flaming undead bane net. 3d6+3 dmg/rd for keeping an incorp tied up. The only reason you'd want a Phase lock is if you're dealing with a Shadow Demon, and it's exit options would still include magic jar...
==Aelryinth
Not if he's wrapped up in a ghost touch net, that is correct. It entangles the opponent and they don't have a strength score, so they can't move it or get loose from it.
Anchoring is for those throwing daggers you have...throw it, hit the incorp, and it can't move away from the dagger. Equally effective, but daggers don't do continuous damage. Melee weapon, same effect.
Anchoring also prevents someone from doing a hit and run on you. A simple readied action and the 'run' stops rather abruptly.
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I've been doing some more research on this topic and it seems that opinions on Ghost Touch nets are mixed.
On one hand, many point to the fact that incorporeal creatures can never be grappled
While others say that Ghost Touch is not a valid power for a net
For myself, I'd like to note that generally incorporeal creatures get to use their Dex in place of Str rolls and in any case the net rules specifically call out that Escape Artist checks can be used to leave a net. So they might eventually escape, regardless of lacking a strength score, assuming the ghost touch net affected them at all.
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Sir, you have just saved me 24,000 gold!
I was just doing a little more digging and found this out:
Inviktus: In order for Phase-locking to take place, the enemy has to be DAMAGED by the weapon. And you wouldn't be able to actually do the damage with the Snag Net until your next turn.
Additionally, In order to do the default damage with the Snag Net at all, I would need to succeed a Trip Combat Maneuver Check. But it appears that Magic weapon Properties, like "Flaming" still do their damage on a successful attack (Touch attack in this case).
As far as the Teleportation goes, enemies would still be able to teleport out of the Non-Phase-Locking Net by making a successful Concentration Check. Adding Phase-Locking, in this case, would make the Ghost Unable to teleport the moment the flaming net makes Contact (And does the 1d6 damage).
So +1, Ghost Touch, and some kind of damaging property like Flaming to start with. Make it Phase-Locking later, after I get more Money. Anchoring is not necessary. How does this sound?
Also: Lion Cleric, I'm not impressed by any of the new classes, but that's another topic altogether. >.>
((EDIT to Inviktus's new post: Oh wow. Looks like I need t do more digging.))
IF it's just for Undead, the bane would work okay. The difference is you have to damage it, THEN the bane adds on. Flaming does damage all by itself...which would then trigger the bane damage.
However you want to play it. Glad to be of help. Generally speaking, what will happen is you'll net the bastard, and then someone will fill it full of sharp pointy things while it writhes around in midair.
Or you can hogtie it and watch it burn to death in banefire. Whatever works!
==Aelryinth
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This is trying to take care of Incorporeals, not just Undead.
Also, to Inviktus's comment, using a net isn't grappling. It only entangles. Nowhere in a Net's description does it say it "Grapples"
So far, the most valid point against this (Seen in the threads Inviktus linked to) is the fact that Ghost Touch property is not in the list of properties for Ranged Weapons, implying that the property cannot be placed on a ranged weapon at all.
More research is required....
Thanks for helping me with this, all. ^_^
Also, to Inviktus's comment, using a net isn't grappling. It only entangles. Nowhere in a Net's description does it say it "Grapples"Your GM is well within his rights to rule that nets are subject to
In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions.
making them immune to the entangled condition via your net.
They have Ghost Touch. Ghost Touch specifically makes an item usable by incorporeal beings.
That's WHY you put Ghost Touch on it. Otherwise you toss the net at it, and it sails harmlessly through it.
And I believe a Net is a Thrown Weapon, which makes it eligible for Ghost Touch.
==+Aelryinth
Which is why I say your GM is well within his rights to rule that way. Even with ghost touch applied, I'd not allow it in my game.
Also
The Net can be a melee weapon with the Net Adept feat.
Treating a net as a melee weapon doesn't change the nets weapon category to one-handed melee reach weapon in the same way that wielding a lance while mounted doesn't make the lance a one-handed melee reach weapon. You GM can, again, rule that taking the feat does not qualify the net for Ghost Touch.
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Also, to Inviktus's comment, using a net isn't grappling. It only entangles. Nowhere in a Net's description does it say it "Grapples"Your GM is well within his rights to rule that nets are subject toIn fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions.making them immune to the entangled condition via your net.
Ghost Touch counters this.
A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.
Ghost touch specifically allows the item to affect incorporeal creatures physically, and incorporeal creature to affect it.
Your GM is well within his rights to rule that nets are subject to
In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions.making them immune to the entangled condition via your net.
This is general rule, Ghost touch is the specific rule that overrides it.
EDIT:ninja'd
I really think this is a weakness of the incorporeal rules. Incorporeal should have STR scores IMO. They just should only be able to use them against other incorporeal creatures or on items with Ghost Touch.
That is indeed a weakness.
By rules-as-written, if I enchanted the Eiffel Tower with ghost touch, a ghost could pick it up (as an improvised weapon) and move it.
This, of course, makes some very interesting Howl's Moving Castle effects. Simply enchant your castle with ghost touch and bind a ghost to "pick up and move" it wherever you want to go. Since ghosts usually have high fly speed and perfect maneuverability, this would also give your castle a high fly speed and perfect maneuverability. And possibly give your GM cirrhosis from alcohol abuse.
So far, the most valid point against this (Seen in the threads Inviktus linked to) is the fact that Ghost Touch property is not in the list of properties for Ranged Weapons, implying that the property cannot be placed on a ranged weapon at all.
Ghost Touch may not be on the Ranged Weapons list, but it is on the ammunition list!
Is a net it's own ammunition? Is it ammunition in a net gun? Is a snag net treated as ammunition?
Personally I don't care about those little details, just the concept of a magic net to catch ghosts is good enough for me.
Who you gonna call!?
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Wow, this is a lot to take in.
So, I'm understanding that a Ghost Touch Net, ultimately, DOES entangle incorporeals based on the as-is-written rules for Ghost Touch and Incorporeals.
And everything else associated with the net is extra.
Now, all I need is a completely definitive verdict on whether or not I can place Ghost-Touch on a net. So far, it's a no. Is there anything that could indicate otherwise?
Personally, I see no problem with Ghost Touch on a net. The only reason I can see for putting the ability on the melee list but not on the ranged list is that ranged weapons don't do the damage, the ammo does (hence, it's on the ammunition list.) Since the majority of thrown ranged weapons can be used as melee weapons, thence making them eligible for the enchantment, I don't see any problem with allowing it on a net as well.
The net is kind of a corner case, as one of the very few weapons I can think of that is a ranged-thrown weapon that cannot be normally used as a melee weapon, therefore the Devs didn't think to add in special rules concerning the different types of enchantments and how they would interact with this specific weapon. The only other ranged-thrown weapon that I can think of that can't be used melee is shuriken, which are treated as ammo, and therefore can be enchanted with Ghost Touch as such. I don't think it's a rules balance thing, I think it's an oversight. Can anyone think of a reason why Ghost Touch on a net would be overpowered to the point where it would be deliberately left off as a choice?
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I know I can't. That's why i thought of trying this in the first place.
The correlation between both Shurikens and Nets being considered as Ammo is convincing enough for me. I think I should just start off with a simple +1 Ghost Touch Snag Net, and add the other enhancements later.
I'll keep an eye on this topic in case there is anything else I should consider. Thank you all for your input on this matter.