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To make a long story short, I have a lvl 16 cleric with the below feats and stats. The rest of the party consists of a Magus, Ranger (Switch Hitter), Witch, Wizard (Evoker and my cohort) and Bard (Cohort of the Magus). I currently provide the main source of healing which is generally with Heal in combat or channels/wands outside of combat. Every combat starts off with a Blessing of Fervor and something else quickened (rod of quickening), but I'm at the point now where I don't know which direction I should take him. He doesn't have the spell penetration needed to confidently overcome SR which we're finding more and more at this level and his melee damage output is way below the Magus or Ranger. Any advice as to what I can do, or am I pretty much SoL? (Changing feats, deities, etc. at this point is not an option and I can only use spells out of CRB, APG, UM and UC)
Stats:
Str/Dex/Con: 20
Int: 18
Wis: 21
Cha: 8
AC: 36 (self buffed w/o combat buffs. Could make it 41 if I swapped out my amulet for NA +5, but currently wearing a necklace of adaptation with 20 Fire Resist on it)
Feats:
Combat Casting
Improved Initiative
Reach Spell
Leadership
Divine Intervention
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Spell Specialization (Breath of Life)
Typical daily buffs: (all at CL 21)
Magic Vestment x2
Greater Magic Weapon
Status
Windwalk
Alignment: LG
Deity: Torag
Domains: Law/Artifice
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I played a Cleric of Iomedae through 16th level in RotRL. I can understand some of your frustrations with high level play. The stuff that works at low and mid levels doesn't cut it anymore.
My Cleric was primarily a support character, but after 13th level or so had some offensive spellcasting abilities that worked out ok.
It's nowhere near as effective offensively as an equivalent level Wizard, but there's some stuff that works well.
How are you buffing yourself at CL 21? Knowing that might help.
I suggest you use Reach Spell often and grab a rod of Piercing Spell (or several) asap.
Reach works great with the Communal buffs, especially Protection from Evil and Resist Energy.
IMO, one of the most dangerous spells on the Cleric list at mid-high level play is Plane Shift. It's normally a utility spell, but it works great as a SoD at these levels.
It takes a 6th level slot to prep it with Reach Spell; you can use a Rod of Piercing, and/or Dweomer's Essence to boost it past most bad guys' SR.
It is a very effective way to clear out minions, but I wouldn't trust it against a main bbeg; they would have more options to get around it in the long run. Sending an unprepared mook to the negative energy plane or the Abyss is nasty, and you can do it at 65' range.
Or, you can get creative with it.
We called it 'Fancy Shift'
I suggest prepping at least one Reach Breath of Life each day.
You also have a lot of great control options on the basic Cleric list at 7th and 8th level.
Fortunately, your Wisdom is high enough to still be relevant. Do you have a headband that's bringing it up to 21?
I assume you have belt of magnificence with 20s to all physical stats. IMO, Wisdom is more important at this level.
Scrolls of Mass Heal are definitely something I suggest having handy. The check to activate them is easy.
Summon Monster has a lot of useful options at this level too, even if you're not optimized to summon. At least it can provide a target for an enemy that will soak up their actions for a couple of rounds, while the rest of your party wrecks it.
If you want to be useful in combat again, buff yourself with Frightful Aspect when the fight starts. Quickened Divine Favor and this would make you a definite threat.
I wouldn't worry too much about your AC. At this level, it's going to provide diminishing returns if you try to boost it much farther.
Look over the spell lists from all of your resources and see what you can do to change up your play style. I think if you move away from combat and towards offensive/control casting, you will have more success. Buffing and battlefield management are strong options for high level Clerics. You still have some offensive spells, but I don't suggest that you focus on them.
You're obviously not going to get much mileage out of hitting things with your hammer now, since you're not combat-optimized.
You have a lot of casting options though.
If you can boost your Wis higher with gear, I say do so.
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I tried to find a good spell for your Spell Specialization feat (to swap out at 16th? 17th?) but I really couldn't come up with much.
Breath of Life seems like kind of a waste for that feat... it only adds +2 HP to your total cured.
Maybe that has made all the difference in your campaign so far, but it seems like it's not much of a return on the investment.
You could swap it over to Plane Shift at your next level (or this level if you just hit 16th). That boosts your CL by 2, which will help you beat SR. That will give you an additional 10' of range with Reach metamagic too. It's not much but it's something.
You could also take Greater Spell Specialization at 17th. That would give you spontaneous Reach Plane Shifts whenever you needed them.
I played a Cleric of Iomedae through 16th level in RotRL. I can understand some of your frustrations with high level play. The stuff that works at low and mid levels doesn't cut it anymore.
My Cleric was primarily a support character, but after 13th level or so had some offensive spellcasting abilities that worked out ok.
It's nowhere near as effective offensively as an equivalent level Wizard, but there's some stuff that works well.How are you buffing yourself at CL 21? Knowing that might help.
I suggest you use Reach Spell often and grab a rod of Piercing Spell (or several) asap.
Reach works great with the Communal buffs, especially Protection from Evil and Resist Energy.IMO, one of the most dangerous spells on the Cleric list at mid-high level play is Plane Shift. It's normally a utility spell, but it works great as a SoD at these levels.
It takes a 6th level slot to prep it with Reach Spell; you can use a Rod of Piercing, and/or Dweomer's Essence to boost it past most bad guys' SR.
It is a very effective way to clear out minions, but I wouldn't trust it against a main bbeg; they would have more options to get around it in the long run. Sending an unprepared mook to the negative energy plane or the Abyss is nasty, and you can do it at 65' range.
Or, you can get creative with it.
We called it 'Fancy Shift'I suggest prepping at least one Reach Breath of Life each day.
You also have a lot of great control options on the basic Cleric list at 7th and 8th level.
Fortunately, your Wisdom is high enough to still be relevant. Do you have a headband that's bringing it up to 21?
I assume you have belt of magnificence with 20s to all physical stats. IMO, Wisdom is more important at this level.Scrolls of Mass Heal are definitely something I suggest having handy. The check to activate them is easy.
Summon Monster has a lot of useful options at this level too, even if you're not optimized to summon. At least it can...
First, thanks for the reply. I'd planned on using Plane Shift as a SoD spell, but my GM has ruled that I have to make a tuning fork with material from the plane I'm sending someone to. So far, I've got Heaven, the material plane, and my own person plane I've created. I suppose I could send mooks to my plane and either deal with them later or let it pop after 17 days.
I'll have to look at some of the communal spells to use with reach, as that sounds like a good idea. Unfortunately, we don't have access to higher level scrolls at the moment and we're currently not in the position to purchase anything (home brew and we're stuck 32k years in the past trying to fix it)
Stats are from a Belt of Physical Perfection +6 and a Headband of Mental Superiority +4 (will upgrade to perfection +6 when we have the downtime). Caster Level is a combination of an Orange Prism Ioun Stone and a standard set of Prayer Beads.
Was planning on taking Greater Spell Specialization at 17 for Breath of Life. But seeing as I've only had to use the spell once in all the time I've memorized it, having a single prepared reach version may be better.
Looking over buffs earlier, Righteous Might (or Frightful Aspect) + Divine Power + Blessing of Fervor would put me at the top of melee damage output while providing nice DR. The downside would be the two rounds needed for buffing, and my GM informed me that excluding a few exceptions, most of our combats last between 3-5 rounds.
I've never made a caster over level 11 without quicken spell. At some point along the way your greatest resource is actions and quicken lets you cast twice in a round.
That's what the rod of quickening is for :)
Think about summons. You could use summon monster 8 to grab an elder elemental or go to the VI list and get 1d4+1 Lillends. They can inspire courage while the cohort bard does other buffs like inspire greatness. They also come with 2 cure serious and 5 cure light wounds so if you happen to get the max roll of 5 you get 30d8+70 and 25d8+125 for an average of 442 hp of healing. They can play fodder to absorb hits, act as flanking buddies, or provide healing and utility all for a single spell which can be worth it. Bralani from the V list can throw blur up on your whole party providing a 20% miss chance. Lantern archons are usually viable due to targeting touch AC and bypassing DR even though their attacks aren't that strong.
With a 21 wisdom I'd avoid anything with a saving throw as your DCs will be a little low vs. CR appropriate monsters.
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That's what the rod of quickening is for :)I've never made a caster over level 11 without quicken spell. At some point along the way your greatest resource is actions and quicken lets you cast twice in a round.
Get another, then. Make sure it's a greater rod. Also remember that unless you're constantly holding it, grabbing/drawing the rod is a move action or (if the GM allows it) part of a move.
Get another, then. Make sure it's a greater rod. Also remember that unless you're constantly holding it, grabbing/drawing the rod is a move action or (if the GM allows it) part of a move.That's what the rod of quickening is for :)I've never made a caster over level 11 without quicken spell. At some point along the way your greatest resource is actions and quicken lets you cast twice in a round.
Planning on picking up another when available. Generally, my GM knows that I use my lesser rod of extend spell in the morning for 34 hour long buffs and then wield my hammer, buckler, quickened rod for everything else.
There is a Ring in PF that lets you tap a spell into it for all-day usefulness. Not sure if it works with Divine Favor, Might, etc, but it would save you a combat buff.
All that buffing and no Shield of Faith?
Summons are going to be your offensive power, or Called Allies.
Spell Resistance isn't going to get any easier. If you want to use offensive spells, you'll need to grab the feat, resources to punch it, or use spells that ignore SR.
That's a very low Wisdom for a cleric of your level. I'm surprised you haven't invested in any Inherent bonuses by now.
I don't see Craft Wondrous Item on your feats list?
There is a Ring in PF that lets you tap a spell into it for all-day usefulness. Not sure if it works with Divine Favor, Might, etc, but it would save you a combat buff.
All that buffing and no Shield of Faith?
Summons are going to be your offensive power, or Called Allies.
Spell Resistance isn't going to get any easier. If you want to use offensive spells, you'll need to grab the feat, resources to punch it, or use spells that ignore SR.
That's a very low Wisdom for a cleric of your level. I'm surprised you haven't invested in any Inherent bonuses by now.
I don't see Craft Wondrous Item on your feats list?
Have a ring of deflection +5 so no shield of faith is needed. Forgot to add Craft Wondrous Items to the feat list. Haven't had the opportunity to buy inherent bonuses yet (it's been many months in game and out since we've been to normal civilization).
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my GM has ruled that I have to make a tuning fork with material from the plane I'm sending someone to. So far, I've got Heaven, the material plane, and my own person plane I've created.
Hahaha! Awesome. Send the bad guys to Heaven and let the angels sort them out.
I bet something evil wouldn't go unnoticed there for very long.Reminds me of a scene from that Constantine movie...
Reach BoL is a fantastic spell.
Grace works well too; immediate action to not provoke AOOs when you move.
I suggest never taking more than one round to buff. Pick two spells, buff, and wade in.
Other buffing should be done when a lull in the fight appears or you're in one of those 'nothing better to do' situations.
Human Diversion is right. Quicken Spell is very important at high levels. Action Economy is more important than anything else in combat.
my GM has ruled that I have to make a tuning fork with material from the plane I'm sending someone to. So far, I've got Heaven, the material plane, and my own person plane I've created.Hahaha! Awesome. Send the bad guys to Heaven and let the angels sort them out.
I bet something evil wouldn't go unnoticed there for very long.
Reminds me of a scene from that Constantine movie...Reach BoL is a fantastic spell.
Grace works well too; immediate action to not provoke AOOs when you move.I suggest never taking more than one round to buff. Pick two spells, buff, and wade in.
Other buffing should be done when a lull in the fight appears or you're in one of those 'nothing better to do' situations.Human Diversion is right. Quicken Spell is very important at high levels. Action Economy is more important than anything else in combat.
Would it be worth it to not cast blessing of fervor if haste is already up? The most useful ability it adds is the swift action to stand.
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I would definitely avoid Blessing of Fervor if Haste was already up on the party.
BoF is really nice, but I think there's too much overlap with Haste to make it worthwhile in such a limited time frame.
Stick with the big self-buffs if combat is an option, or stick with offensive spells if you feel like the others in the party can handle the melee.
Ah, yes, the Ring of Continuation. Personal spells lasting 10 min/level now last 24 hours.
Although I'm not sure of a good list of spells to help your buffing out.
==Aelryinth