I have a few questions about the weakened prince.
Even with 10 negative levels, he doesn't lose his epic damage reduction ? That seems very tough with DR 20, far more than losing his mage armor ability.
It is said in text that he loses 2 points of natural armor for every negative level, but according to the table, he loses only 3 points for every two negative levels. Which one is correct ?
(also his touch and flat-footed AC seems wrong, should be touch 23, and flat-footed 11 less than normal AC).
Also, I think losing 2 points of DCs for special ability per negative level is a little harsh. With 10 negative levels (so -20 to the DCs), most characters will fail only on a natural 1. If someone has run the encounter, what are you thoughts about this ?
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I've run this battle once.
Epic DR
Demogorgon, Prince of Demons, starts out as a CR 33 creature. Even at 10 negative levels, that's CR 23, which is still epic so the DR can stay.
Natural Armor
I agree that there is a discrepancy. I'd go with the chart over the text. Demogorgon, Prince of Demons, should be easier, not a push-over.
Armour Class
Touch: Dex (+11), Size (-2), and Deflection (+4) apply here, so I get the same number you did, Touch AC 23.
Flat-Footed: Only lose Dex (+11), so I think you're right that it should be 48 (not that anyone is going to catch the two-headed, four-eyed Prince of Demons flat-footed).
DCs
One thing I did was have a gradual reduction in his power as the battle went on. I realized as I was planning the fight that if the players met Demogorgon, Prince of Demons only at a diminished level, they wouldn't appreciate all of the 'whittling down' their allies had done.
Have Demogorgon, Prince of Demons, start out at full power. Each round have one of the allies' effects go off.
Orcus, Demon Prince of Undead: Though defeated, he leaves behind his Rod and a trusty sneaky minion. This minion executes a retributive strike with the Rod of Orcus, the explosion of which destroys Abysm.
Arendagrost, Bagromar, Tetradarian: Turns out they weren't dead, just mostly dead. Each round an angelic force recon discovers the quivering lump of slightly alive spawn/clone and vanquishes it for good. It may feel like robbing the players of their victory, but my players enjoyed watching Demogorgon, Prince of Demons, losing his power right before their eyes.
An alternative would be that the players do completely kill these three, it just takes time for their essences to reach Demogorgon, Prince of Demons. Like Wile E. Coyote, he doesn't fall (lose the power) until he looks down (becomes aware that they're dead).
Malcanthet, Queen of Succubi: Her telepathic lash can come whenever the DM chooses, so this one is easy.
Obox-Ob: This one is up to the PC's, so it, too, is fairly easy.
As an aside, Obox-Ob was the last to be released, so his aspect wasn't destroyed in the battle. One of the PC's won the contest for the crown, Prince of Demons, and then immediately turned it over to Obox-Ob.
That's right, baby, Obox-Ob, Prince of Demons, back on top. Tanar'ri wane and obyriths wax again. It has totally upset the balance of power in the Abyss. Tanar'ri are fleeing the Abyss for sanctuary on the Material Plane like rats leaving a sinking ship.
Thank you Mykull for your answer.
As for the epic DR, if I remove it, only the fighter will be able to ignore the remaining cold iron and good part. The only other characters who will eventually attack him in melee can't. One is a druid who obviously fights under wild shape, so no cold iron. The second is a sacred fist (monk/priest prestige class) who can't use weapons, again no cold iron weapons. I'm afraid that leaving Demogorgon wih a DR20 against the only character who can really hits him would be too difficult, especially with fast healing 20 and some heal spells under the belt.
His SR will be fairly low though against the sorcerer's spells (who has a +23 to penetrate SR).
I agree with you for natural armor. Lowering by 2 by negative level may be too important, leaving him with only 12 points of natural armor.
I would have the Lady of the Court of Stars point out that the group really doesn't have what it needs to take on Demogorgon, Prince of Demons and that she knows where a cache of such weapons can be had.
Turn it into a side adventure. Pump up the threat of Demogorgon, Prince of Demons; I do not recommend toning him down to make him beatable. If the party isn't ready for him, then it should be a TPK.
Thanks again for your answer. Unfortunately, last session, they find the master pearl and Demogorgon arrived throgh his gate, so it won't be possible. I need now to figure if it's possible to win with this epic DR or not, based on their average damage and hit chances.
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Ok, Savage Tide is finished ! I've run this battle this afternoon, and the PCs have been succesful even if they were almost short of healing spells, one or two rounds more, and they would have die.
I didn't remove epic DR, and this has been a good thing. They had the help of Gwynharwyf for the most of combat. They managed to heal her to keep her fighting for long, and she drew most of the Prince of Demons' attention.
The special abilities' DCs were really too low, only when a character has several negative levels (and thus a lower save) could the saves fail on anything else than natural 1.
I made Demorgorgon AC 40 (a loss of 3 points per 2 negative levels) with the full negative levels, and his SR still at 36, so it didn't take many spells, and the sorcerer quickly couln't affect if with some negative levels.
I have used the critical and fumble decks, which help a lot the players. I've made a few bad fumbles for Demorgorgon (one made him dazed for 3 rounds !), and the players scored a lot of good criticals (which help to do signifant damage despite the epic DR).
But I completely forgot that a character was affected by Kallum's curse, which would have surely change a lot of things.
Anyway, I'm very happy to have finally completed this great campaign ! Kudos again to the authors !!
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Congratulations on completing the campaign!
Thank you !
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Congrats on finishing the epic that is STAP!
I noticed this thread a bit late to weigh in, obviously, but when I converted STAP from 3.5 to PF, I reduced the power-downs that Demogorgon receives to create a "hard mode." My players had no way to beat Demogorgon's DR besides paladin smite, yet they still chewed through his hit points in about 3 rounds. I had a TWF ranger/totemic demonslayer with +1 holy evil outsider bane cold iron scimitars. Once that guy started trading full attacks with Demogorgon it was game over.
Let me join the chorus and congratulate you on finishing this campaign! :)
I still hope to run it myself, one day, maybe using Mythic Adventure to convert the final NPCs to Pathfinder… One day… Maybe…
+1 on congratulations for finishing STap!
Both my groups decided to go for Rise of the Runelords, so I'll have to wait for at least a year before I get another chance to persuade them to try STap.
Huzzah!! Well done!
Likewise, I'm restarting STAP myself, once my Kingmaker game is done. We're nearing the end of Chapter Four... I estimate maybe another 6-9 months before that plot ends and we can begin some fiendish piracy.
Thank you all !!
I've been thinking to restarting the campaign, since it was a little chaotic to say the least (a lot of stalling, and some players leaving with new ones coming), but I still have Age of Worms to run (and as a die hard Greyhawk fan, I really want to run it). But I'm beginning to become a little bored with 3.5/Pathfinder, so I will need a change for a time. But it was really great to play these adventures.