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I am planning my character for an upcoming Wrath of the Righteous game. This game is probably still approximately 6 months away. Let me start by saying I am trying to build a character that I have been building a concept for, for over 20 years. I am finally at a place where I can play this, I am only restrained by the rules of Pathfinder, which admittedly have been the best rules for this yet. I am trying to find thematic and mechanical ways to make this character. Some of the choices may seem like pure crunch and maybe they are but that is not what I wish to debate here.
I have told my DM about my plans to play an Angel Blooded Aasimar paladin. I plan to take Warrior of the Holy Light, Oath of Vengeance and Oath against Fiends. I also intend to take a 1 level dip into Oracle of Lore for Sidestep Secret and knowledge planes.
My DM has Ok'd the Oaths with Warrior of the Holy Light even though they technically modify the same ability, spells.
Where we have a problem, and I have had a long discussion here on the boards about is Oath against Fiends. He has told me along with many others here on the board that this selection is impossible. This is a core choice for my character for both thematic and mechanical reasons. Through some discussion my DM agreed to work with me to figure out a way to make a new archetype that was not an Oath so that this would work. He said he only wanted the archetype to address the Oath issue and I feel like I have done that. I do appreciate the willingness to compromise very much. This is our game and the rules are guidelines. They are not hard and fast laws that can not be manipulated.
After telling my DM my vision of the character. A paladin of divine light that it is actually painful for evil outsiders to be near and whom defends the mortal realm from those who would pierce the veil to enter it for malevolent means.
The best way I have found to do this is..
Oath of Vengeance: for obvious mechanical and thematic reasons.
Oath against Fiends: mainly for the Anchoring Aura which leads to the Painful anchor feat. This is not to say I do not like Holy vessel as well but we will get to that. This is the core of it being painful for the evil outsiders to enter our world.
A 1 level oracle dip to get knowledge planes and sidestep secret. We all know the paladin is a MAD class. So I fully admit this selection has more mechanical reasons for the choice than thematic but the theme is there. A warrior of light that can see between the veil of reality to those who seek to pierce it. The fluff is there to reason out sidestep secret as a valid choice.
Then Warrior of the Holy Light. This choice, is very thematic for me as it plays to his devotion to Sarenrae and ability to call upon holy power to aid his allies. He will worship Sarenrae, Iomedae and Ragathiel. Though all mechanical benefits and powers gain come from Sarenrae.
Ok, finally, here is what I initially proposed to my DM.
Ardent Aegis
The Ardent Aegis is a direct agent of the divine. This paladin may gain his powers through ardent faith of one deity, many deities or through the shear power of good and law. He is attuned to the ebb and flow of the planes and defends the mortal realm from insidious powers that would manipulate those boundaries to their own advantage.
Knowledge: Ardent Aegis gains Knowledge: Planes as a class skill and looses Knowledge: Nobility. He is concerned with the powers of the realms, not just the mortal one.
Channel Wrath (Su): When an Ardent Aegis reach 4th level, she can spend two uses of her lay on hands ability to gain an extra use of smite evil that day. This ability has no effect for a paladin who does not have the smite evil ability. This ability replaces channel positive energy.
Anchoring Aura (Su): At 8th level, a paladin’s aura hampers extradimensional travel by evil outsiders. The aura extends 20 feet from the paladin. Evil outsiders attempting to use abilities such as dimension door, plane shift, or teleport to leave or enter the aura must succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the paladin’s level + the paladin’s Charisma modifier); failure means the ability does not function, as if the outsider were affected by dimensional anchor. The aura functions only while the paladin is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead. Alternatively, as an immediate action, the paladin can expend one use of her smite evil ability to target an evil outsider within 30 feet with dimensional anchor. A targeted dimensional anchor persists even if the paladin is unconscious or dead. This ability replaces aura of resolve.
Sidestep Secret (Su): By level 9 the Ardent Aegis's understanding of the thin barrier between the realm grows. Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Ref lex saving throws. Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity. This ability replaces the mercy a paladin would gain at level 9.
This power comes with a flaw as his knowledge grows his own touch with the mortal realm slips in a small way. He must select an oracle curse along with this ability.
Aegis Shift (Su): Upon reaching 11th level an Ardent Aegis not only understand the fabric of the realms but can begin to manipulate it. By spending one use of his smite evil ability as a swift action an Ardent Aegis can attempt to push or pull all evil outsiders to or away from him whom are within 30'. When the ardent aegis does this he makes a CMB roll to bullrush every evil outsider in range. This bullrush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The Ardent Aegis can only push all or pull all evil outsiders in the radius, he can not mix and match who he pushes and pulls. Any evil outsider effected by this ability is through through the fabric of the realms and appears in their new location. If they are under the effect of an ability that would inhibit planar travel this ability has no effect on them. This ability replaces Aura of Justice. This would move them through the painful anchor and they would also take that damage.
So, all of the abilities that are gained from Ardent Aegis my character already possesses except Aegis Shift. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel here I am just trying to come to a compromise as this particular AP has pigeonholed me into not being able to play exactly what I want.
My thought process was that I would be willing to give up many things.
Those being:
1. The spells I would have gained from Oracle. (which gets rid of the ablitity to use spell trigger items as well.)
2. Delayed gaining Sidestep secret until 9th (and made it fit the fluff more in my opinion)
3. Holy Vessel (the ability to augment my armor or shield with my sacred bond pool)
4.Powerful Justice (the Oath of vengeance ability that replaced Aura of Justice to begin with)
By doing so I would gain:
1. Full paladin progression (this also keeps me out of the oracle dip which one of our other players did not like and felt like stepped on his character's toes.)
2. Aegis Shift
I felt like this was a fair and balanced way to give us what we both wanted. My DM's initial response was that putting it all together was to much, which I didnt understand because I get it all anyway by making the choices I had already selected. He also felt like Aegis Shift was to powerful.
I took another look at Aegis shift and agreed with him. I said we could change the requirements to use 2 smites, or make it take a move or standard action, or make it limited to only effecting as many evil outsiders as the paladins charisma modifier. Or any combination of those things.
He did point out that anchoring aura would hamper this ability so I would need to add that it would not.
I came up with Aegis shift because the only area effect ability the Paladin has is Aura of Justice. The ability to give your allies your smite damage (only damage because of powerful justice). The ability is limited by using a resource, by the fact that it only effects evil outsiders and by the fact that you must succeed at a CMB bullrush. I agree that this ability would be strong, but I dont think it is over powered.
I am posting this here to get a positive thread started in regards to how we can make this work. I would appreciate all constructive criticisms and suggestions please. I am asking for all oppinions and suggestions related to this topic which can be constructive and help my DM and I get to a mutual compromise.
So, you are you building a brand new paladin archetype that swaps paladin abilities for what you want.
Could you specify exactly what class/archetype features you are wanting to include in the Ardent Aegis archetype, and from what class or archetype they are coming from (except for your new ones). I know you are using things from the Oath of Vengenace, Oath against Fiends, the oracle Sidestep Secret revelation, and stuff from the Warrior of Holy Light.
Paladins are my favorite class, so I'm more than willing to help you out. I tend to work from lists, this way I can see exactly what you are wanting to bring into the paladin class and I can gage the balance, etc.
Ok here goes.
My original concept included.
1 level dip of oracle, including Sidestep secreit
Oath of Vengeance
Oath against Fiends
Warrior of the holy light.
After a lengthy discussion I have been made aware the oath in Oath against Fiends is to restrictive for Wrath of the Righteous. I do not want to torpedo my whole concept so my DM agreed to remove the Oath against Fiends, 'oath' and try to work around something that still gives me what I want.
My idea for a compromise was what I listed above.
I would keep sidestep secret, though gain it at level 9 instead of level 1. I would give up the spell casting abilities of this dip.
I would keep the Channel Wrath from Oath of Vengeance. I would give up the Powerful Justice which replaced Aura of Justice.
I would keep the Anchoring Aura from Oath against Fiends. I would give up Holy Vessel here. Anchoring Aura lets me take the feat Painful Anchor which I really love and is key to the concept.
Warrior of the Holy light is unchanged and unmodified.
By doing all of the above my suggestion was that I gain 2 things.
I would be able to keep full paladin progression and I would gain the new ability I came up with Aegis shift.
The whole idea behind this was as a compromise because I can not keep Oath against Fiends in this setting.
I thought of Aegis Shift because it seemed very fitting and it also fit nicely into the place of Aura of Justice. Though that ability was already effected by Oath of Vengeance with Powerful Justice so I worked that into this Archetype.
The main goal here is to look and see if gaining the first 4 abilities of Ardent Aegis is balanced and fair. Especially considering that I would gain them already. Then also, to look at Aegis shift and try to balance it all together.
I hope that helps as I would appreciate your input.
I really see no issues with what you've done. All the abilities from the Warrior of Holy Light swap out specific class features, as does the Channel Wrath and anchoring Aura abilities from the two Oathbound Paladin archetypes, none of which over lap. Technically, RAW, you can take multiple archetypes, as long as the archetype abilities of one archetype does not swap out a class feature of the paladin that another archetype also swaps out. In your case, you would be fine, you just wouldn't gain the spells from your oaths, as you'd lose spells from Warrior of the Holy Light archetype.
Gaining the Sidestep Secret, I feel, is worth the mercy at 9th level, just as holy Vessel would have replaced it. And Aegis Shift should be fine for Aura of Justice. All you are doing is pushing or pulling evil outsiders in 30 feet is less powerful than granting all allies her smite damage bonus, which lasts while within 10 feet of the paladin. Aegis shift is simply a one round use ability, compared to +11 damage vs evil outsiders by all allies, so expending 1 smite evil use may be too much, due to the limited nature, and the minor benefit as a whole compared to what Aura of just ice can do. You could expend two uses of Lay on Hands instead, which is more a secondary ability, as Aegis Shift is really a secondary battlefield control effect, vs. the overt primary ability of smite and even Aura of Justice. I don't see how this would be too powerful.
In fact, as the Sidestep Secret revelation can be taken whenever the oracle can choose a revelation, including 1st or 3rd level), I don't see why you couldn't gain it in place of the 3rd level mercy instead, and still be fine. Maybe 6th if your GM thinks that's too early.
Thank you for taking the time to look it all over and giving constructive input.
I appreciate that you like what I've come up with.
Don't forget that Aegis Shift, if within 20' of the paladin would move them through the painful anchor and they would take the damage from that. Would you still think it is balanced as is with the added damage? I don't have my book with me but I believe it is 4D8+charisma mod.
One other person has replied with suggestions in the other thread I started for this. He had some interesting input as well.
Thank you for taking the time to look it all over and giving constructive input.
I appreciate that you like what I've come up with.
Don't forget that Aegis Shift, if within 20' of the paladin would move them through the painful anchor and they would take the damage from that. Would you still think it is balanced as is with the added damage? I don't have my book with me but I believe it is 4D8+charisma mod.
One other person has replied with suggestions in the other thread I started for this. He had some interesting input as well.
No problem!
To your question. Even with the damage, its only a one time 4d8 + Cha mod. Aura of justice allow allies to deal +11 damage for every successful attack against the smite target. If the fight lasted 5 rounds, and 4 allies are within the aura + the paladin, they could do (say minimum 2 hits per person each round) could do a total of +110 damage x 5 rounds = 550 damage. If there are 6 outsiders in your Aegis Shift area, and you succeed on pulling all of them, that's only 4d8 + Cha (18 + 3 Cha at 11th) = 21 to all 6 outsiders, and that's it. Unless they remain in the area of the Painful Anchor. So, according to the numbers, what's a more powerful ability?
Heck, you could even make it X/day ability, say a number of times per day equal the Ardent Aegis's charisma modifier. 3x per day doing 18 damage average to an outsider is not much better than a 3rd level spell.
EDIT: Looked at your other thread. You could make Aegis Shift expend 1 use of LoH, and affect a number of evil outsiders within the area equal to Cha mod. This way its expending a limited resource, and scales with your increase in Cha stat as you level, gain magical enhancements, etc.
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I see two problems:
Anchoring Aura inhibits extraplanar travel. Aegis Shift is extraplanar travel and specifically states "If they are under the effect of an ability that would inhibit planar travel this ability has no effect on them." Anchoring Aura afflicts the creature with dimensional anchor. So how exactly is this combo supposed to work?
Additionally, Painful Anchor only afflicts evil outsiders who use their own abilities, not when they are forced to do it by others. "When an evil outsider uses a calling, summoning, or teleportation effect, or any ability that physically transports a creature to or from another plane". Thus, Aegis Shift and Painful Anchor wouldn't interact in the way that you think it would.
@Elghinn Lightbringer. Thank you for taking the time to post and provide your opinions and suggestions. If you have anything else you would like to add please feel free.
@Karu the Bold Strider. Thank you for taking the time to reply as well! I see what you mean by those 2 potential problems. What would you think if the ability was edited so that those 2 things did not cause an issue? Something like...
Aegis Shift: Upon reaching 11th level an Ardent Aegis not only understand the fabric of the realms but can begin to manipulate it. By spending one use of his smite evil ability as a swift action an Ardent Aegis can attempt to push or pull all evil outsiders to or away from him whom are within 30'. When the ardent aegis does this he makes a CMB roll to bullrush every evil outsider in range. This bullrush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The Ardent Aegis can only push all or pull all evil outsiders in the radius, he can not mix and match who he pushes and pulls. Any evil outsider effected by this ability is through through the fabric of the realms and appears in their new location. If they are under the effect of an ability that would inhibit planar travel, except for Anchoring Aura, this ability has no effect on them. This ability replaces Aura of Justice. This would move them through the painful anchor and they would also take that damage despite the movement not being of their own power.
Also, Karu, what do you think about the rest of the archetype and the power level over all. Is the archetype as a whole flawed in any way or to powerful? Is Aegis shift, with those modifications to much? If so how would you suggest changing things to make it fair and balanced?
Or, what if we just removed the line about it not having an effect if they are under the effect of a spell or ability that inhibits planar travel?
Wouldn't that make the whole thing make sense?
DM and I have agreed to drop Aegis Shift.
New suggestion in place of it is this.
Aura of Retribution: Any evil outsider who stands within 20 feet of an Ardent Aegis takes damage equal to the Ardent Aegis' s charisma modifier each round. This damage comes from holy power and can not be prevented by damage redution, energy immunities, or energy resistances. The Ardent Aegis may expend one use of smite evil to emit of a burst of holy power centered on him out to 20 feet. Each evil outsider in that burst must succeed at a will saving throw 10 + half paladin level + charisma mod or be staggered for a number of rounds equal to the paladins charisma modifier.