Is the White-Haired Witch Hair a natural weapon?


Rules Questions

Sczarni

I got into an argument with a guy that says that the hair of a White-Haired Witch, despite the text saying ' This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. ', that her hair is not a natural weapon, and that I could not use with iterative attacks as a natural secondary weapon (what the Natural Attacks rule says). He claims that the phrase 'fonctions as' doesn't mean that the hair is a natural weapon.


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Functions as means that, while it may not be a natural weapon in the same sense as Claws, Horns, etc., it is subject to all the rules that manage natural weapons in determining how it works. What else does he possibly think "functions as" could mean, contextually speaking?

d20pfsrd wrote:

Aldori Dueling Sword

Benefit: An Aldori dueling sword may be used as a Martial Weapon (in which case it functions as a longsword), but if you have the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori dueling sword), you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls with an Aldori dueling sword sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. You can also wield an Aldori dueling sword in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage.

What would he think is the meaning of the phrase, "in which case it functions as a longsword"? Would he say that, despite saying that, it doesn't benefit from Weapon Focus Longsword or proficiency with Longswords because "functions as a longsword" doesn't mean "is a longsword"? Would he say they just added that line in there for their health? What is the meaning of the word 'is'?


Caïen wrote:
I got into an argument with a guy that says that the hair of a White-Haired Witch, despite the text saying ' This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. ', that her hair is not a natural weapon, and that I could not use with iterative attacks as a natural secondary weapon (what the Natural Attacks rule says). He claims that the phrase 'fonctions as' doesn't mean that the hair is a natural weapon.

Treat it as a natural weapon in every instance and it will remove the need to do mental gymnastics. This means no iterative attacks.

Sczarni

I believe it's possible to still have the iterative attacks when using natural weapons.


Your hair counts as a natural weapon except where the rules specifically states your hair doesn't count as a natural weapon. Nitpicking "functions as" changes nothing unless the rules actually identify times it won't "function as" a natural weapon or lists some caveat. And the rules do not.

Sovereign Court

Except it never state it is a natural weapon in the description, it say "gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet." I understand how it can be confusing but it's stated it function as a primary natural attack, not a natural attack or a natural weapon, hence it can't be used in as a secondary attack. Believing it's a natural weapon is interpretation. In every other descriptions of abilities giving natural attack it's always implied that it can be used either way, look for metallic wings, lesser fiend totam, even the claw of the draconic bloodline specify it function as a natural weapon, not a attack.


Caïen wrote:
I believe it's possible to still have the iterative attacks when using natural weapons.

No, this is incorrect.

Quote:

Natural Attacks

Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Once again, the white-haired witch natural attack is subject to all rules regarding natural attacks except where it is specifically stated not to be. Ergo, unless you have some text which lays out that they are to be treated as a manufactured weapon for the purposes of iterative attacks, or you took the Feral Combat Training feat with a level of monk, or got some other exception, you would be stuck to only taking a single hair attack per attack action (full or otherwise).


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Bloodspecter wrote:
How do you take the "primary" into account? you seem to just ignore it

A "Primary" natural attack is just a natural attack made at full BAB with 1x strength. 1.5x strength if it's your only natural attack.

"Secondary" natural attacks are made at full BAB -5 and only add .5 strength to damage.

If you only have 1 natural attack then it becomes "Primary" even if it says it's a "Secondary" natural attack and adds 1.5x strength to damage.

If you combine a natural attack with an attack from a weapon then the natural attack becomes a "Secondary" natural attack. No matter what it's description says it is.


Bloodspecter wrote:
Except it never state it is a natural weapon in the description, it say "gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet." I understand how it can be confusing but it's stated it function as a primary natural attack, not a natural attack or a natural weapon, hence it can't be used in as a secondary attack. Believing it's a natural weapon is interpretation. In every other descriptions of abilities giving natural attack it's always implied that it can be used either way, look for metallic wings, lesser fiend totam, even the claw of the draconic bloodline specify it function as a natural weapon, not a attack.

From the definition of natural attacks:

Quote:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.

Your hair doesn't need to be a secondary natural attack by default to use it with weapons - using it with a weapon makes it into one. By your reading of the rules, humanoid creatures with bite attacks could never make both bite and weapon attacks in the same round, because the rules specify that bite attacks are primary attacks (without giving any special clauses for being secondary attacks). As can be demonstrated through the SRD entry for werewolf, this is most definitely not the case.


Primary natural attacks become secondary when used in conjunction with weapons. The hair doesn't need additional text specifying this because it is a general rule.

Sczarni

So... This has become a thread about natural attacks rather than the hair of the white-haired witch.


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The thread didn't "become" anything because the original question involves the nature of natural attacks. It's like a discussion about cars going into which kind of gasoline is best for certain kinds of cars. The topic of discussion didn't "change" from cars to gasoline. Sometimes, in a discussion, you must adequately define a term in order to continue a pertinent discussion of the primary topic. Some people seem to not understand what natural attacks are and some are tripping themselves over splitting hairs between "is" a natural attack and "functions as" a natural attack. That's not a debate point, it's errant pedantry. So natural attacks must first be explained in order to properly explain why the witch's hair, while not explicitly a natural attack, functions as and follows all the rules of natural weapons.

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