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I finally got a chnace to look at Swashbuckler. Frankly - the class itself looks fine to me. Reasonably balanced and all that.
However - it seems stupidly broken as a single level dip when combined with Slashing Grace.
This will let ninjas use a pair of katanas and use their dex instead of strength for damage! All for 1 level & a feat. (plus weapon focus - darn!)
Not to mention they'll also gain panache (ninjas already need good Cha) and several handy deeds to use it with. Plus martial weapon proficiency is nothing to sniff at. (already proficient with katanas - the only thing they'd use is probably a longbow - but still handy)
Rogues don't gain quite as much as ninjas (don't generally have as high a Cha - and aren't auto-proficient with katanas) but they still gain a lot, and more benefit from martial weapon proficiency.
Frankly - like the ranger way back in 3.0 - can you really see any well built ninja or rogue NOT dipping a level into Swashbuckler? When something's too good NOT to use - that generally means that it's too good to exist.
Again - I don't think the Swasbuckler in general is OP. If Slashing Grace required 4 levels in Swashbucker similar to Weapon Specialization requires 4 levels in Fighter then it would be fine. As it stands though...
Edit: I used katanas as an example of how big the weapons could get. Obviously my sarcasm fell flat. Wakizashis would obviously be better to avoid the extra -2 to hit. Or sawtoothe sabres if you want to spent an extra feat.
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Are you anticipating a lot of characters two weapon fighting with two one-handed weapons? That -4 to all attacks off a 3/4 BAB seems like a hefty deterrent.
What's your timeline for double katana action? Slashing Grace requires Weapon Focus, which requires proficiency and +1 BAB. The earliest I could see a ninja doing this would be at level 3 (1 swashbuckler, 2 ninja, picking up Weapon Focus with a Ninja Trick. Two-Weapon Fighting wouldn't come online until level 5 at least.
I'm not seeing the broken.
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one, no it's not broken at all, hell it isn't op.
why bother with katanas when saw tooth sabers are superior in every way?
Also the best level 1 deed prevents the use of TWF.
The only thing broken here, as in need fixing, is how narrow slashing grace is in giving it goodies; A dwarven war axe gets dex to damage but a dagger or rapier doesn't.
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I used katanas as an example of how big the weapons could get. Obviously my sarcasm fell flat. Wakizashis would obviously be better to avoid the extra -2 to hit. Or sawtoothe sabres if you want to spent an extra feat.
Of note though 9mm - daggers are actually slashing - so they would get the dex to damage. (shortswords & rapiers are slashing though)
Ninjas and (especially) rogues are so far down the food chain that a little buffing is hardly a bad thing. Perhaps complain about an actually good class instead?
Why wouldn't Slashing grace work with Light Slashing weapons? if they work with one-handed weapons they should work with light ones, they are doing DEX damage, so a lighter weapons should be more idoneous.
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Because the feat doesn't say "a light or one-handed slashing weapon", just "a one-handed slashing weapon", it doesn't work for light weapons.
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I used katanas as an example of how big the weapons could get. Obviously my sarcasm fell flat. Wakizashis would obviously be better to avoid the extra -2 to hit. Or sawtoothe sabres if you want to spent an extra feat.
Of note though 9mm - daggers are actually slashing - so they would get the dex to damage. (shortswords & rapiers are slashing though)
Wakizashis won't work because they don't qualify for Slashing Grace, or at least using them would require four levels of swashbuckler to qualify for Martial Versatility (and I believe we need to wait for the Rapier dex-to-damage feat, due to none of the other weapons in the wakizashi's weapon group qualifying for Slashing Grace). Sawtooth Sabers are an extra feat for your ninjas, but we can take that with our first swashbuckler level, so level 3 for that.
Sample progression:
Swa 1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sawtooth Saber), Two-Weapon Fighting
Nin 2
Nin 3 Slashing Grace (Sawtooth Saber), Weapon Focus (Sawtooth Saber)
So -1 to BAB for the ability to get Dex to damage with your Two-Weapon Fighting. Eh, you've covered the cost of an agile enhancement on both swords, and you're using a weapon with a lower crit threat. Not impressed.
And actually, reading over Fencing Grace, even with Martial Versatility I'm not sure that a wakizashi would ever qualify, because it only works for rapiers period.
Actually I've been wondering about the level dip for Cha based classes. Is losing out on a spell level worth adding to your Cha to AC several times a day in addition to the 5' step. Seems like a way too obvious choice for a sorcerer EK.
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It's almost never worth losing out on a spell level, unless you're playing with magic academy rules. Consider that Cha to AC and immediate action protection abilities are both replicated with spells anyway. Nereid's grace, while a deflection bonus, will give a high level sorcerer a huge increase on a round/level basis (and while it's a druid/witch spell, that makes it qualify for a ring spell). If you really want to abuse it, make yourself a continuous item of it for 8000 gp (although a GM might price it at 64,000 gp for a sorcerer to create it).
This will let ninjas use a pair of katanas and use their dex instead of strength for damage! All for 1 level & a feat. (plus weapon focus - darn!)
Enjoy that –8 / –10 penalty on attack rolls since you don't have Two-Weapon Fighting and you're dual wielding a pair of one-handed swords. Even if you get Two-Weapon Fighting, you're still taking –4 / –4.
Edit: I used katanas as an example of how big the weapons could get. Obviously my sarcasm fell flat. Wakizashis would obviously be better to avoid the extra -2 to hit. Or sawtoothe sabres if you want to spent an extra feat.
You're still wrong then, because as written Slashing Grace doesn't work with wakizashis. One-handed slashing weapons only for Dex to Damage.
Sawtooth Sabers work, but it requires an extra feat as you noted.
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I used katanas as an example of how big the weapons could get. Obviously my sarcasm fell flat. Wakizashis would obviously be better to avoid the extra -2 to hit. Or sawtoothe sabres if you want to spent an extra feat.
Of note though 9mm - daggers are actually slashing - so they would get the dex to damage. (shortswords & rapiers are slashing though)
Wakizashis won't work because they don't qualify for Slashing Grace, or at least using them would require four levels of swashbuckler to qualify for Martial Versatility (and I believe we need to wait for the Rapier dex-to-damage feat, due to none of the other weapons in the wakizashi's weapon group qualifying for Slashing Grace). Sawtooth Sabers are an extra feat for your ninjas, but we can take that with our first swashbuckler level, so level 3 for that.
Sample progression:
Swa 1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sawtooth Saber), Two-Weapon Fighting
Nin 2
Nin 3 Slashing Grace (Sawtooth Saber), Weapon Focus (Sawtooth Saber)So -1 to BAB for the ability to get Dex to damage with your Two-Weapon Fighting. Eh, you've covered the cost of an agile enhancement on both swords, and you're using a weapon with a lower crit threat. Not impressed.
And actually, reading over Fencing Grace, even with Martial Versatility I'm not sure that a wakizashi would ever qualify, because it only works for rapiers period.
Why would you lose 1 BAB? Swashbuckler has full BAB. You'd also gain panache. Heck - even without slacking slashing grace on top, Swashbuckler is a much better 1 level dip for anyone dex based than Fighter is. You gain basically a feat (different but overall better than normal finesse), more/better skills, and panache/deeds (especially awesome for ninjas who already need Cha).
I wouldn't call that easily replicated with a spell as I'd never heard of the spell and it isn't a sorcerer/bard spell.
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Are you anticipating a lot of characters two weapon fighting with two one-handed weapons? That -4 to all attacks off a 3/4 BAB seems like a hefty deterrent.
What's your timeline for double katana action? Slashing Grace requires Weapon Focus, which requires proficiency and +1 BAB. The earliest I could see a ninja doing this would be at level 3 (1 swashbuckler, 2 ninja, picking up Weapon Focus with a Ninja Trick. Two-Weapon Fighting wouldn't come online until level 5 at least.
I'm not seeing the broken.
Human
1. Swashbuckler: weapon focus(katana), slashing grace(katana)
2. Ninja
3. Ninja: TWF
The -4 penalty for using a one-handed weapon in his off hand, plus the -2 penalty for two-weapon-fighting, makes the character unlikely to hit often.
Switch out ninja for fighter and katana for sawtoothed sabers and you can two-weapon-fight at 3rd level without the additional penalty.
Well, why not a swashbuckler 1/slayer X? Sawtooth sabres are the weapon of choice, full bab+ favored target+ SA+ great rogue/ninja talents tossed in....still not a broken dip?
So let's sdo some example play again:
Lvl1 - swash1: pinache, all level 1 deeds, exotic weapon proficiency (sawtooth sabre), weapon focus
Lvl2 - slayer1: slayer talent:ranger style feat (two-weapon fighting)
Lvl3 - slayer2: slashing grace.
Now you have a bab of three, -2 to hit with both weapons, full dex damage on both, all kinds of nifty tricks to use, and a scaling AC that goes up with your +to hit and +to damage. The ability to take another deed again later via the grit rogue talent if you want, and some nifty other things. The only thing this misses out on, is the invisible blade ninja trick that only the ninja can get...ohh well...
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Sample progression:
Swa 1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sawtooth Saber), Two-Weapon Fighting
Nin 2
Nin 3 Slashing Grace (Sawtooth Saber), Weapon Focus (Sawtooth Saber)
Anyone with martial proficiency can use the sawtooth sabre. The exotic weapon proficiency allows you to dual wield without additional penalty.
Swap the order of feat selection.
I like Swashbuckler 1 with Slashing Grace to make the Red Mantis Assassin less MAD. It's a huge step in making the class easier to manage.
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hmm im trying to fuigure this out, but i keep getting stuck on how to get slashing grace with a katana for a ninja, cuase for slashing grace you need weapon focus, for weapon focus you need to be proficiant in the weapon and bab+1, it seems wierd to me is all, i mean if i start swashbuckler, i cant take weapon focus katana since he's not profienct wich means no slashing grace, if i go ninja 1st lv he lacks the bab+1 for weapon focus, but now that i type it up im thinking the best and only real way to get this going is 2lvs ninja then swashbuckler for a lv then back to ninja, useing the 2ndlv ninja trick to get weapon focus katana then slashing grace at third, so fortunally only two lvs until you get the dex to damage on a katana lol