Hello everyone!
Currently I am playing as a wizard in a homebrew campaign, whose friend (a killed PC) died in the early levels. My Character is eagerly trying to revive/ visit her old friend. After a discussion with my GM we both have many questions about the afterlive in Pathfinder and how some stuff works.
I would be really happy if someone could give me a heads up on this. Looking in "The Great Beyond" didn't help much.
1. Could you physically visit/ see a dead soul on another plane? Or is it only possible whan this soul becomes an outsider?
This is particulary important, because my wizard would love to visit this dead friend via plane shift or at level 7 scry on him.
2. Why aren't the planes overwhelmed with souls? Do souls revive after a given time? I wonder, because in the Psychopomp Nosoi flavor text it mentions that these little birds have to work several centuries to become a higher outsider, or _revive as a mortal_. SO that means that every outsider becomes a mortal again eventually?
3. Last but not least: When an outsider dies on the material plane, does it disappear to its own plane like in the old days? (Ad&d I guess) It is an important matter of "Is looting possible?" :)
I really hope I made my questions clear, if not, please ask :) I would love to hear the answers to these!
Thanks for reading
~Gwen
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Hi, Gwen.
Just a clarification: You say you're playing a homebrew campaign. I assume that means that you're playing in a (mostly) unmodified version of Golarion?
I ask because if you're playing in a homebrew campaign world, then you should ask your GM, not here.
That said, the afterlife and how soul move throught the Great Beyond is Very Mysterious: i.e. the developers have been deliberately vague about it, so that GMs are free to write their own stories without being fettered.
By my understanding (and how I would rule it in my game):
1a) After a soul dies, it goes to the Boneyard to be judged by Pharasma. Before judgement, it is possible for the soul to be brought back by mortal magic (i.e. a raise dead or more powerful spell). After judgement, it is not possible at all for that creature to be brought back to life without the direct intervention of a god. (There are no rules for that-- that's a storyline decision for the GM.)
I houserule that scrying does not work across planes of existence, but greater scrying can... although the DC is harder. "Piercing the veil" is difficult, after all!
I would suppose that it might be possible to attempt to visit a dead soul in the Boneyard. That would be a very cool adventure, akin to the story of Orpheus and Eurydice. I would run that as an extraplanar adventure, not something that you could just "do" as a routine thing.
1b) After a soul becomes a petitioner, it retains little-to-nothing of its previous memories and personality. The sould essentially becomes something else, and I would rule that you could no longer scry on it at all without some sort of new connection.
2) The Great Beyond is a big place. It never gets overrun by souls. Not every outsider becomes a mortal again, but some do. The process is again Very Mysterious. (i.e. The GM can use the vagueness to write the stories she wants to write.)
3) No. An outsider called to the Material Plane and killed there is just dead.
Hello Haladir,
Thank you for the quick response :)
It means, my boyfriend and I are both DMs in different campaigns, both new as DM for Pathfinder. I use the Golarion setting, including places and stuff. He invents his own countrys and towns and so on, but else tries to be as close to Golarion as possible (i.e. use the deitys in the intended way, use races like they are described in Pathfinder and so on.)
So we are both interested how the great beyond in Golarion works.
Thanks for the input on 1a and 1b. I think your ruling is fair. But am I right, that you suggest, that even 9th grade magic couldn't revive a fallen companion without greater help? (Not meant in a bad way, just curious)
We are sure to use some of your ideas! :)
2.) Alright, that means there is room for GM ideas.
3.) Thanks, that answered a lot!
I really appreciate your answers, thanks again! Sorry for my floppy english.
~Gwen
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Haladir pretty much nailed it. I'd be inclined to let True Resurrection, Miracle, and wish potentially bring back people who've been judged, but definitely nothing less than that.
The OP did not specify Calling. If the outsider is summoned, instead of called, then it does disappear when it is "killed". On the other hand I can't think of a way to get a specific outsider to the material plane without using a calling spell.
According to James Jacobs (whose word is pretty much law on thematic stuff like this) they aren't even really Outsiders if summoned by the Summon Monster spells. They're something more like the platonic ideal or reflection of that creature type made temporarily manifest...but not only are they not specific individuals, they're basically not even real. Link, for him saying more-or-less that.
3) No. An outsider called to the Material Plane and killed there is just dead.The OP did not specify Calling. If the outsider is summoned, instead of called, then it does disappear when it is "killed". On the other hand I can't think of a way to get a specific outsider to the material plane without using a calling spell.
True, but I assumed that was implied in the question (i.e. outsiders either called to the Material Plane or who managed to travel there on their own.) If an outsider is really on the Material Plane and is slain there, then that outsider is really dead.
The way I interpret it, summoned creatures aren't really there at all: The summon monster spells conjure up an avatar of an idealized outsider. Such creatures disappear in a puff of smoke when killed, or when the spell duration ends.
Thank you too for your input, Deadmanwalking!
Summoned outsiders via the summon monster spell really weren't my concern. I rule it (and also the GM I play with) that the monsters/animals that appear from this spell are only images. I thought that was a given. So I see it as Haladir.
My question was specifically for outsiders that are for some reason really walking on the material plane, not the ones summoned via a low spell. :)
~Gwen
Very glad to see this timely thread, as I was wondering along similar lines why planeswalkers in Golarion cannot contact deceased individuals from the world's past via magic and ask them the answers to certain questions. For instance, contact Durvin Gest and find out what really happened. Stuff like that. Perhaps he isn't dead, so that may not be a good example, but stuff along those lines.
The discussion above helps answer some of those questions for me. Thanks!
Odd, I remember reading in 'Chronicle of the Righteous' that petitioners do remember their past lives. But they can shed those memories if they want to.
Barong, this makes it complicated. I will look that source up! Would love to have an offical answer.
~Gwen
Creative Director
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Hello everyone!
Currently I am playing as a wizard in a homebrew campaign, whose friend (a killed PC) died in the early levels. My Character is eagerly trying to revive/ visit her old friend. After a discussion with my GM we both have many questions about the afterlive in Pathfinder and how some stuff works.
I would be really happy if someone could give me a heads up on this. Looking in "The Great Beyond" didn't help much.
1. Could you physically visit/ see a dead soul on another plane? Or is it only possible whan this soul becomes an outsider?
This is particulary important, because my wizard would love to visit this dead friend via plane shift or at level 7 scry on him.2. Why aren't the planes overwhelmed with souls? Do souls revive after a given time? I wonder, because in the Psychopomp Nosoi flavor text it mentions that these little birds have to work several centuries to become a higher outsider, or _revive as a mortal_. SO that means that every outsider becomes a mortal again eventually?
3. Last but not least: When an outsider dies on the material plane, does it disappear to its own plane like in the old days? (Ad&d I guess) It is an important matter of "Is looting possible?" :)
I really hope I made my questions clear, if not, please ask :) I would love to hear the answers to these!
Thanks for reading
~Gwen
1) Yes, but in the vast majority of cases, the soul, which is now a petitioner, won't remember its previous life.
2) Because the planes are really big, and because souls, which turn into petitioners, eventually turn into outsiders and/or are "absorbed" into the quintessence of the plane itself. This is detailed MUCH more in an upcoming article in the last volume of Mummy's Mask.
3) Only if the outsider was summoned does its body disappear. If the outsider was called or is other physically there (as is the case when it uses a gate, plane shift, or a portal), it dies and its body lies on the ground and you can loot it.
Ah, here it is, page 33 of Chronicle of the Righteous:
Depending on her station and desires, a petitioner arrives at one of Heaven's seven levels, possibly uniting with agents of her favored deity or with deceased members of her mortal family.
The mortal souls who come home to Nirvana's graces take on the most variable enduring forms. Though the gods hold total control over the memories of their deceased faithful, and petitioners who don't worship a god and are sent to other Outer Planes retain their memories in some fashion, petitioners who root themselves in Nirvana are allowed to become blank canvases, so to speak losing sight of their mortal selves either all at once or piece by piece.
Wow, I didn't expect so many answers so quick!
@Barong: Thank you for the quote. Very interesting. There is really a lot for a GM to play with.
@James: I'm glad that you took the time to anwer my questions :)
1.) Okay, so it would be an rather awkward talk between my wizard and her dead friend. This also solves a lot of plot problems, like Dosgamer mentioned.
2.)Ohh, there you got me hooked! I will surely check this last volume of Mummy's Mask out, well done ;)
3.) Alright, I understood this whole summoning/calling outsider part completely. :)
Thank you all again for the input, it was quite insightful.
~Gwen