Could a Paladin simply get a friendly cleric of their deity to place a voluntary Geas/Quest spell on them with the instructions to "follow the paladins code"? For 1 day/level, which you should easily be able to refresh baring exceptional conditions, you mechanically are unable to fall. With all the Paladin falling threads that constantly pop up here... I would have thought more people would do this. Is there something I'm missing?
This would work for any class with a code of course, not just paladins.
Is it not considered to be walking the righteous path if you are compelled to do it? /interesting moral question.
Well, while it is certainly an option (it is specifically called out as an example Penance in 'how to become good' chapter; I use the SRD alot, so not sure of the source).
But unfortunately the problem with a lot of alignment threads comes from problems out of character, rather than in character. If you have an abusive GM, then giving him to ability to arbitrarily control your character based on a vague interpretation of your code, and causing you ability damage if anyone else stops you, seems like a horrible idea.
What happens when he thinks that you must kill each and every baby goblin? To kill everything that detects evil on the spot, even if it is obviously his big overelaborate trap to pull an 'AH-AH!'? You could be turned into a robotic GM-NPC by that point.
I do like the idea that this could be used as a communication tool though. If you are doing something wrong, the geas should give you a general compulsion saying 'nope'. And if you 'go against the code' anyway? Then the GM has no excuse since you are pretty much programmed to NOT break the code. But again, this is something you should only do with a GM you trust.
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The Phylactery requires you to ask the question "is this bad" though. If the GM is playing Gotcha, that doesn't help.
And if the GM is a mature sane person, I'm not sure you really need the Phylactery; you could just ask OOC "are we on the same page here about what the Code means in this situation?"
The Phylactery requires you to ask the question "is this bad" though. If the GM is playing Gotcha, that doesn't help.
And if the GM is a mature sane person, I'm not sure you really need the Phylactery; you could just ask OOC "are we on the same page here about what the Code means in this situation?"
If the GM is a good person, they might do something like a 'common knowledge' check. I mean, the basics of the code that dictates whether you lose EVERYTHING should be a DC 10, right? Maybe even a DC 5? Heck, maybe DC 0? Maybe even do it unprompted when you are doing things that are a wee bit 'baby-murdery'.
It would just be 'what are the parts of my code that are brought up by this situation?'. Maybe even google-fu it with keywords like Xbaby Xgoblin Xrusty knife stabbed into ankles, critted, what do?
Of course, that is if they are thoughtful enough to discuss you code before the game starts. Maybe even make a handy little list of tennets. A 'gotcha' GM just "assumes" everyone knows that you must always kill every goblin on sight (unless he was REALLY important and had a name and was chosen of X LG god, and HOW COULD YOU INSTANT FALL).
What if instead of the GM decided whether or not a Paladin can fall, only the players can?
That way a GM can't plan any "Aha!" moments.
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@lemeres: I don't think there should be any check involved at all. If something is "common sense" according to the GM, or something that everyone in the game world would know, then he should just tell it to the players.
After all, their PCs would know these things. Why should the player have to jump through hoops to get to know things that his PC already knows?
That covers the common Code issues: all those should just be the GM saying "are you sure about that? It would violate the Code, because X."
As for "gotcha" moments when a paladin is tricked into doing something that actually happens to be evil, but he didn't realize that: that's BS. A paladin who's trying to follow his Code in good faith shouldn't fall. He might accidentally do evil, and get some angry shouts from up in the sky, which mean it's time to do some penance. But not permanent falling.
And the "choice between two evils" - if there really is no other option, pick the lesser one, protesting all the while, and atone as soon as possible. It might merit a reduction in paladin powers until he's cleansed himself of the sin, but not a total stripping or falling.
Consider this: the divine power that invests a paladin as a holy warrior wants him to succeed. The divine power doesn't want to make its paladins fail.