Magic item free PF (innate bonuses only)

[Farastu]

I don't know that I'd ever run a long run PF game with no magic items (though refluffing them as advanced technology I could see). However I am curious how to make such a game work, and certainly, having characters rely less on gaining magic items would be rather nice.

So, it occurs to me, if no or few magic items around, then there's different ways it could be handled, and one of them would be to simply have characters all rely on innate bonuses.

Now, I've ran low magic games where there was maybe one or two magic items available (though these have been short run games), and they honestly can run pretty smoothly, maybe with just very minor tweaking, especially if you have players whom like to be more tactical and think outside the box as far as how they handle things. If you give monsters with certain things like high dr, something mundane as a vulnerability that also helps.... however, lately I've been pondering how a game where there no magic items (or even just ones that are very different) could be handled with innate bonuses granted to characters as they level instead.

I mean things like AC that don't normally scale with level particularly. Has anyone used a system where AC increases with level before? Maybe at really high levels did you start giving them some sort of automatic miss chance instead?

Not having magic items also opens up maybe allowing characters to choose from some more bonus feats, or other things which would grant them additional bonuses, or special abilities... it seems to me, that mythic tiers actually could maybe serve this purpose, instead of outright raising the character's effective level simply helping them keep pace with how powerful they would be if they were fully outfitted, though I think at higher tiers mythic is way more powerful than Paizo gives it credit for.

The other alternative I can think of is somehow giving a certain amount of "gold" as "xp" which characters can invest in special ability... but that would be a little bit trickier (maybe even a huge pain, don't know), as it essentially would create a whole new point buy system. There's RPGs that do this, plenty, and would be interesting to see with PF, or another d20 system, but has anyone actually tried something like that?

[Hawkmoon269]

Oops. I think you've wandered into the wrong forum. This is Pathfinder Adventure Card Game (ACG), not to be confused with Pathfinder Role Playing Game (RPG) and certainly not to be confused with the Advanced Player Guide (APG), or even the Advanced Class Guide (ACG)

While you wait for thread to be moved by a moderator (which might take a while because it's the weekend), why not give ACG a try? (The Adventure Card Game, no the Advanced Class Guide. Though you are welcome to give the Advanced Class Guide a try as well.) Actually, it being the weekend works in your favor. It is just more time to find and player ACG (again, I'm refering to the Adventure Card Game and not the Advanced Class Guide). There is a good chance you will find the game quite enjoyable.

Good luck with figuring out all that magic item stuff.

[Farastu]

You are correct, I just saw that it was homebrew and house rules, admins can move this to the right homebrew section for me pretty please?

[Hawkmoon269]

Looks like your thread got moved. Good luck with your concept.

[Cyrad]

There's been other discussions about this. Generally, lack of magic items cripples martials because they rely on magical equipment to stay useful and handle threats. Mages, on the other hand, don't need them so much. I've seen some people run games where PCs automatically get enhancement bonuses to their scores as they level up.

In my opinion, you should only nix magic items for the purpose of developing an interesting campaign setting, not for its own sake.

[Kolokotroni]

Farastu wrote:

I don't know that I'd ever run a long run PF game with no magic items (though refluffing them as advanced technology I could see). However I am curious how to make such a game work, and certainly, having characters rely less on gaining magic items would be rather nice.

So, it occurs to me, if no or few magic items around, then there's different ways it could be handled, and one of them would be to simply have characters all rely on innate bonuses.

I have a system of house rules that does something like this. It replaces the vast majority of magic items with bonuses characters choose from as they level. In conjunction with that permanent magic items (not wands, scrolls or potions) can no longer be crafted by normal means, and are rare priceless items. They still appear in my games, but in very small numbers (a character might have 2-3 over the course of their whole career). And they cant be bought or sold, they just appear in places that make sense for the story. There are also no +x items. IE no +2 swords. Just ignus the flaming sword. And the +x comes from the bonuses you can choose from.

Quote:

Now, I've ran low magic games where there was maybe one or two magic items available (though these have been short run games), and they honestly can run pretty smoothly, maybe with just very minor tweaking, especially if you have players whom like to be more tactical and think outside the box as far as how they handle things. If you give monsters with certain things like high dr, something mundane as a vulnerability that also helps.... however, lately I've been pondering how a game where there no magic items (or even just ones that are very different) could be handled with innate bonuses granted to characters as they level instead.

Yea low wealth games with no modifications do make an impact on the game at mid to high levels. It makes it difficult to use non-humanoid creatures of a high cr because magic items are part of the assumed 'power' characters get as they level. If you use innate bonuses on the other hand, that shouldnt be a problem. And at least in my game, its worked rather well for some time now.

[Kolokotroni]

Cyrad wrote:

There's been other discussions about this. Generally, lack of magic items cripples martials because they rely on magical equipment to stay useful and handle threats. Mages, on the other hand, don't need them so much. I've seen some people run games where PCs automatically get enhancement bonuses to their scores as they level up.

In my opinion, you should only nix magic items for the purpose of developing an interesting campaign setting, not for its own sake.

Well it hurts mages too, but yea, certain kinds of characters definately suffer disproportionatally. That said, I think its ok to want to change the magic item availability for its own sake so long as you seek to replace the power they normally grant. I for instance have zero intention of nerfing martial characters with my house rules around magic items. I just dont like the economy the abundance of magic items creates, as well as the demand on the story to somehow incorporate useful and relavent magic items even when it would be out of theme for the story or location.

IE if your frontliner is an axe weilding fighter, in the normal game the gm should make some effort to make available to him (by purchase, by finding it, or by contracting its crafting) a magical axe. But if you are fighting an organization known for its fencing skills and the enemies all have rapiers, I think have to contrive some reason for there to be an axe around somewhere. I'd rather not have to do that, but not penalyze the player for wanting to use axes.

[Farastu]

See I very much like that, get rid of the +1 +2 and so on weapons, give the characters some innate things by level, and then if they do find magic weapons then they aren't your typical +1 or +2 sword.

Which, gaining a +1 or +2 to ac or saves as a character levels up makes sense, where as anyone being able to suddenly make their sword flaming doesn't. There's less of a need for special qualities (at least in most cases) than there are for the bonuses though. As far as DR, if you include special materials, most (though not all) of those can still be handled by any given character class without any changes made.

Now... that still includes some magic items, but decreases the dependency on them, and makes a lower magic setting work better, and I'd think won't make things harder for melee classes.

Has anyone published any charts for what sort of bonuses by level would be good to grant in low or no magic item settings?

[kyrt-ryder]

'anyone' suddenly making their sword flaming doesn't make sense, but for certain powerful adventurers to unlock the ability to ignite their fists and/or any weapon they're holding with the flames of their soul?

Totally appropriate.

[Farastu]

Hmmm true enough, and which, actually makes me think of another way of handling "magic items" (or at least the abilities they grant), where somehow if characters can start unlocking special abilities like that, how to handle it. The key would be for it to be done in a character concept appropriate way somehow.

Could add some new sort of special ability trees for these things, which, in and of its self could be quite interesting if done right (enough I might actually have to try making some of these).

Now, for a completely low magic setting, or no magic setting, this sort of thing wouldn't be helpful, but for a setting where you want strong low-magic and high-magic elements juxtaposed against one another would be excellent. Throw in mythic if you want to heighten that even further.

[Blakmane]

This concept has had a lot of discussion well before pathfinder existed.

Here is a link you may be interested in:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?298121-Cutting-Down-the-3-5-Chr istmas-Tree-Decoupling-Wealth-from-Combat-Power

[Oceanshieldwolf]

LINK'd for you...

[Kolokotroni]

Farastu wrote:

Has anyone published any charts for what sort of bonuses by level would be good to grant in low or no magic item settings?

I have a set of houserules that use ingrown bonuses. The original post is found here, with an update to the wording of the heroic distinctions later on here.

I am currently working on playtesting a wider change to magic as a whole, but these rules for magic items have been run through a number of games (including apparently several play by post campaigns here on the forums, which is pretty awesome) without any glaring issues. The only thing that your group would have to adapt to is the fact that the heroic distinctions dont account for damage reduction the way magic items do. But I have found in practice, martial characters usually want their primary magic item to be a weapon anyway (dr/magic) and since they arent forced to use a single powerful magic weapon, having backup weapons of cold iron and silver isnt an issue the way it is normally. (The bonuses work on a type of weapin IE longsword, not on a specific weapon).

[Farastu]

So, I've started running a PF game, with no magic items so far with the exception of potions, scrolls, and two plot specific ones that have no impact on combat, and so far little impact outside of it (at least as far as game mechanics are concerned).

I have granted characters a dodge bonus, which will increase as they level.
I have given critters DR that is overcome by materials like silver, gold, cold iron, etc.... in every case so far, there's some non-magical material that will work. However most of their enemies are humans, or at least human-like, so they play by the same rules the players do anyhow.

It has worked surprisingly well, and with a few adjustments is much less crippling than I expected. Most of the characters aren't even especially optimized, and there has only been one death in 5 sessions(and some other close calls, but that all mostly has to do with having so many players that like combat with a decent chance of lethality). If I wanted to reduce how close to death characters tend to get in combats, and the overall lethality I could probably just do so by introducing things of a few CR lower.

When I do introduce magic items, because they will eventually find some, I'm going to base them on the legendary items found in Mythic Adventures.

One thing that is nice about this is, a lot of players, now that they don't have to worry one bit about buying magic items (aside from scrolls and potions now and then) are free to buy buildings, businesses, build teams (which some really like to do) or just spend money on other in-character appropriate things (whether that's a lot of booze, or some sort of research they want to invest in, or trying to gain some sort of influence, or whatever). Where as before, if I gave them a bunch of extra gold so they could do those things, then I ran the risk, that some players would want to invest in a bunch of buildings, and businesses, while others would use that extra to buy a ton more magic items.

I just don't even have need to worry about that issue now (well, not to the same degree as before, too much money can lead to problems magic items or not, but in this case, at least those problems have more RP potential)... if it would make sense for them to earn a particular amount money or treasure as a consequence of whatever they happen to do in game, then they do. I even base starting gold on their character's social class, and so far have gotten no complaints about handling it that way.

Kolokotroni and Oceanshieldwolf, I will read through your links, I just checked on this thread again after not looking at it for a while so I haven't had a chance yet.