I have been having a rather hefty conversation on what is it that defines a game or aspect of game P2W (Pay to win). Having done both old type MMOs and other video games, as well as play TTRPGs, the entire subject being in question at all seems rather ludicrous as it is just very simple.
P2W: "Gaining a game mechanic benefit by paying money."
However this seems to be in question when it comes to minor impact things in a game like market board space and off character inventory space.
I sort-of can see why these things would be overlooked, but it is clear and cut to me. Every obstacle in the game, be it a final bosses in the game, unlocking a prestige class, or managing your inventory limitations.
I just look at this from the point of a a TTRPG; "Oh GM I am beyond the physical limitations of my house in storing stuff. I would like to give you cash to get a 2nd house for my character to live in."
I was very surprised by how many people could not see this and this has brought me to a rather shocking conclusion; these people have been groomed into thinking this is okay. This maybe half due to them really wanting the benefits in the first place and are willfully ignoring it to avoid guilt.
I would like to say I am open to being wrong on this, but that would be a lie because it just seems so cut and clear on this subject of inventory and market space.
Well... Most people would agree that getting new stuff that merely LOOKS different is not P2W. Usually, they would agree that one facet of this is that when you do not get a direct combat advantage from what you get, it's not P2W. Inventory space certainly doesn't give you a combat advantage. In most cases, you can throw out stuff to get you more space instead, meaning what it gets you is a bit of flexibiliity and time saved.
I can understand that reasoning. I still hate paying for in-game stuff, so I don't. It's a distant thing to call P2W, though.
Well... Most people would agree that getting new stuff that merely LOOKS different is not P2W. Usually, they would agree that one facet of this is that when you do not get a direct combat advantage from what you get, it's not P2W. Inventory space certainly doesn't give you a combat advantage. In most cases, you can throw out stuff to get you more space instead, meaning what it gets you is a bit of flexibiliity and time saved.
I can understand that reasoning. I still hate paying for in-game stuff, so I don't. It's a distant thing to call P2W, though.
I just remember all that time I spent hunting the right bags in EQ and doing all those faction increasing missions in Final Fantasy XI to get more inventory space. This aspect of actually having inventory space just seems like a major aspect of games.
P.S. In FFXI the amount of inventory space you had limited how many classes you had access to even.
P.P.S. how is this not just walking up to a GM and paying him real money for another house?
Having more inventory slots is not winning.
That's more like DLC that you can only play with other people who have the DLC. In terms of Pathfinder Society it kinda is, I suppose, since you can't just use the SRD or borrow someone else' book.
But no, you can easily recognize Pay to Win when you see it.
If you ever played the original Gunz: The Duel, the people who purchased swords that could stunlock you were indulging in obvious P2W.
For it to be P2W it requires that you gain a distinct advantage over other players that is not obtainable (or not easily obtainable, see purchasing an extremely rare drop). Generally a problem only found in competitive games, not cooperative ones.
Well, let's look at Pathfinder. You have a complete game in the CRB. If you pay for the APG, Ultimate books, etc, you are gaining game mechanics for money. Is Pathfinder P2W?
Ideally, no; this would be the same as an expansion pack allowing for a wide span of new content. However when you add options there is always a slight increase in power to those who have options.
TTRPG to MMO pay comparisons?
Free to Play: Any TTRPG where you can just show up and borrow the books from the helpful guy next to you.
Premium Player: Anyone who owns their own game books.
Pay to Play: Is their a subscription based TTRPG? Maybe membership to a gaming club that charges dues; or possibly 4th editions Insider attempt?
Pay to Win: Only if the GM lets you use options the others can't if you buy him pizza or some such GM bribes.
DLC: (I agree with Rynjin) Pathfinder is kinda like DLC. You pay more and get more content.
I would like to say I am open to being wrong on this, but that would be a lie because it just seems so cut and clear on this subject of inventory and market space.
I completely disagree with you. I think Rynjin gave a pretty good definition of P2W.
For it to be P2W it requires that you gain a distinct advantage over other players that is not obtainable (or not easily obtainable, see purchasing an extremely rare drop). Generally a problem only found in competitive games, not cooperative ones.
PFS is like p2w. You can use any option you want if you personally own the book, but if you don't then you are stuck with CRB only.
I haven't seen any games where your books mattered... the only collection that seems to matter is the GMs. And even then everyone gets to use the same options even if they don't own the book.
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PFS is like p2w. You can use any option you want if you personally own the book, but if you don't then you are stuck with CRB only.I haven't seen any games where your books mattered... the only collection that seems to matter is the GMs. And even then everyone gets to use the same options even if they don't own the book.
At PFS events, you are expected to own the books in which your character options appear, either in print or with a PDF copy watermarked with your name.
Really? How do they enforce that? Either an option is PFS legal or not isn't it?
I would define pay to win more as "Gaining a game mechanic advantage over opposing players by paying money."
There isn't really anything wrong with somebody essentially buying their progress through a game. Let them, not sure why you would want to play the game in the first place if the gameplay is so tedious to you that you would rather pay money to skip it, but that's not my problem.
Pay to win happens when you have a competitive game, and in that game you can buy weapons and equipment that is downright better than what you get in the game. When you pay to tip the balance of a competition in your favour.
There can very well be cash items that give you a benefit, but also come with an equal amount of drawbacks compared to items available for free. These I would also not consider pay to win, because they hold the balance still. To me that's the gold standard for any items in an online game, both those that you buy in a cash shop and those that you unlock in a game through gameplay progress.
In a cooperative game a more powerful set of equipment will hardly be noticed by other players, unless its so overpowered that you just outshine everyone or take all the challenge away.
PFS is like p2w. You can use any option you want if you personally own the book, but if you don't then you are stuck with CRB only.
I tend to half-agree with this...
Given that PFS's whole point is to promote sales of the Pathfinder product, the half I do agree with (the "pay" half) I have absolutely no problem with.
On the other hand, I don't agree with the "win" part. It's more "Pay for extra fun options" as you're (at least, hopefully) not trying to beat the other players.
Switching back to the OP - It's a bit of a grey area, really.
If you're talking a multiplayer game in which you're competing against other players, then yes - I have a problem with P2W in those circumstances. It kinda kills the whole point of competition dead.
If you're talking a solo or co-operative game, then I don't really hold it against the manufacturer for selling additional, more powerful, content options. We can always vote with our wallets and refuse to buy that kind of game. We can also, in most cases, just go find a cheat code and gain an advantage for free if we want one.
A GM can ask to see a copy of your sources at any time. If you don't have it, they can ban your character for that session, and you have the choice of not playing or playing a pre-gen for that scenario.
Wow harsh... so you have to carry a crate full of rulebooks around with you in a convention, books you have no other need to lug around, just to play in PFS with your own character?!
Typically done with paper copies of the relevant passages, as I understand it.
A page with the option(s) from your watermarked PDF is acceptable too. Pretty sure that you can also just have the watermarked PDF on a portable device so you can show the GM the relevant rules they need to look at.