Natural Attack (Bite) + Unarmed Strike question(s)

[Wiggz]

So if a character uses Unarmed Strikes in combat, either via Two-Weapon Fighting or Flurry of Blows and they have a natural bite as a primary attack, can that attack be used as part of a full attack action?

And if so, does it suffer a -5 penalty? And does it gain the benefits that Unarmed Strikes get (like from the feat Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike for instance or the increased damage die from unarmed attacks by Monks)?

Would bite attacks benefit from an Amulet of Mighty Fists?

[Mort the Cleverly Named]

With a normal Full Attack, yes, you would get to use your Bite as a secondary attack. However, Flurry of Blows is a special full-attack action that explicitly prohibits you from taking natural weapon attacks as well (though Feral Combat Training would allow you to use your bite for Flurry attacks).

The attack would be secondary if you are also attacking with an unarmed strike, which would indeed mean -5 to the roll (-2 with Multiattack).

It does not get the benefits of Unarmed Strike feats, you would need to take Weapon Focus (Claw) separately. However, Martial Versatility/Mastery would allow you to apply the bonus to your natural attacks, as both natural attacks and unarmed strikes are part of the "Natural" weapon group.

EDIT: Missed one! Yes, all natural attacks benefit from the Amulet of Mighty Fists.

[Sniggevert]

Wiggz wrote:

So if a character uses Unarmed Strikes in combat, either via Two-Weapon Fighting or Flurry of Blows and they have a natural bite as a primary attack, can that attack be used as part of a full attack action?

And if so, does it suffer a -5 penalty? And does it gain the benefits that Unarmed Strikes get (like from the feat Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike for instance or the increased damage die from unarmed attacks by Monks)?

Would bite attacks benefit from an Amulet of Mighty Fists?

The character can bite along with the TWF/flurry attack. The bite is treated as a secondary natural attack, so would suffer a -5 to hit and only offer 1/2 STR to damage. The minus to hit can be offset somewhat by the Multiattack bestiary feat.

The bite is a natural weapon, so it is not normally affected by feats for unarmed strikes or the damage die progression from monks. I believe there is a FAQ about how the feat Feral Combat Training at least changes the damage issue, not about the feat issue.

A bite would benefit from an Amulet of Mighty Fists, as the amulet will affect all unarmed and natural weapon attacks of the creature using it.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Mort is correct with everything he says. To answer your final question, yes, AoMF affects unarmed strikes and all natural weapons. That's why it's more expensive than a normal magic weapon.

[Wiggz]

I appreciate the quick answers, and they go a good ways in helping me figure this out. It might help more if I offered the specific concept.

What I'm working on is a Goblin Fighter (Brawler) who dips two levels of MOMS for Snake and eventually Crane styles. He's kind of inspired by Yoda/the Tasmanian Devil/Stitch (of Lilo and Stitch fame).

At the end of the day I'm trying to figure out if including the racial trait option of a bite attack is worthwhile as part of the character's attack chain or if I should stick with the Skilled options - its not like he's going to be lacking for attacks anyway. He doesn't use Flurry of Blows obviously, choosing instead the TWF option. Monk levels are taken at 2nd and 3rd.

Goblin 2nd level Monk (Master of Many Styles) / 18th level Fighter (Brawler)

Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 12 (-2 racial modifier)
DEX - 16 (+4 racial modifier, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, & 16th level)
CON - 14
INT - 14
WIS - 12
CHA - 7 (-2 racial modifier, +1 @ 20th level)

Feats:
1st - Weapon Finesse
1st - Two-Weapon Fighting
2nd - Improved Unarmed Strike
2nd - Stunning Fist
2nd - Snake Style
3rd - Snake Fang
3rd - Combat Reflexes
4th - Dodge
5th - Crane Style
6th - Crane Wing
7th - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8th - Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
9th - Crane Riposte
10th - Greater Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
11th - Stand Still
12th - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13th - Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike
14th - Critical Focus
15th - Sickening Critical
15th - Staggering Critical
16th - Critical Mastery
17th - Piranha Strike
18th - Stunning Critical
19th - Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike
20th - Greater Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike

Equipment:
Brawling Mithril Chain Shirt, Mithril Steel Shield, Amulet of Might Fists (Agile)

So many questions...

Does the bite benefit from Weapon Finesse?

Does the bite suffer the -2 penalty from TWF as well as the -5 penalty for becoming a secondary attack?

Does the bite attack benefit from the Weapon training bonuses the Brawler gets from the 'close' weapon group? Can't get much closer than a bite...

Does the bite benefit from the Brawling armor quality?

Does the bite benefit from the Agile amulet quality?

Does the bite benefit from Focus/Specialization/Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike? If a head butt or a knee is considered an unarmed strike, wouldn't a bite be?

Thanks in advance for any answers you are able to provide...

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

1) Yes, natural weapons are considered light weapons.

2) No, the penalties in two-weapon fighting specifically apply to the attack from your main hand, and the attack from your offhand, only.

3) No, natural weapons are not part of any weapon group.

4) No.

From the Brawling armor special ability wrote:

These bonuses do not apply to natural weapons.

5) Yes. Agile applies to any weapon that can benefit from weapon finesse, and natural weapons are considered light weapons and can benefit from weapon finesse.

6) No. The bite is not an unarmed strike, it's a natural weapon. These are different things. You can take weapon focus and other feats and apply them to your bite, however.

[Wiggz]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Answers.

Thanks. It looks like the book-keeping alone is going to make it impractical to include the bite - which is fine; the character is going to get a ton of attacks anyway... I just thought adding the bite attack would be a nice fit thematically.

[KainPen]

Does the bite benefit from Weapon Finesse? yes all natural attack

Does the bite suffer the -2 penalty from TWF as well as the -5 penalty for becoming a secondary attack? (edit you have to look at few stat blocks to confirm in the monster book) I was wrong on this one you do not take the peanlty on the natural attacks

Does the bite attack benefit from the Weapon training bonuses the Brawler gets from the 'close' weapon group? Can't get much closer than a bite...? No there is a natural weapon group and that is where bite falls under. It was added in ultimate combat.

Does the bite benefit from the Brawling armor quality? no it says under brawling that natural attacks do not benfit from this property.

Does the bite benefit from the Agile amulet quality? yes if you can finess with it.

Does the bite benefit from Focus/Specialization/Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike? If a head butt or a knee is considered an unarmed strike, wouldn't a bite be? You have to take each of these with seprate of unarmmed strike. knee, headbutt, is all fluffy to discribe an unarmed strike. It could even be butt slap or pinky flick. It actual has no bearing on attacks and type, you could discribe your unarrmed attack as a bite, but it is not the same as the natural attack bite. natural attack bite is a just that a natural attack from a natural weapon. This is why you get to add it at -5 in a full attack.

[lemeres]

Just wanted to also note (for the benefit of future seekers who might stumble over this thread in a forum search): secondary natural attacks only get 1/2 str mod and power attack bonus damage on a hit, just like a normal offhand attack. This fact tends to get overlooked.

[ArmouredMonk13]

All of the questions are yes if you take feral combat training, as brawling armor, close weapon stuff from brawler, and the feats all apply to unarmed strikes. Of course, you need 2 feats.