Maybe my searchfu is failing me on this topic, but it doesn't seem to be addressed directly with any of the keywords I've supplied.
I've noticed a good number of 'Aquatic' creatures also maintain a Base Speed(aka land speed) greater than zero. Specifically, I want to exclude any creatures with actual legs from the following discussion.
I realize a large number of the remaining candidates also have the property "cannot be tripped", but I'm confident not all have it explicitly listed, so...
1. Does a positive Base Speed ALONE prevent such a creature from being considered prone while moving on land?
2*. Does immunity to Trip ALONE prevent such a creatures from being considered prone while moving on land?
3. Does a combination of the two(Base Speed and Trip immunity) prevent such a creature from being considered prone while moving on land?
*#2 is a slightly more specific case of a thread I remember participating in a few years ago. I'm of the opinion that "Trip Immune" != "Prone Immune", but the rules aren't so detailed as to conclusively end the debate.
Now, if the answer to all of above questions is "No", Are aquatic creatures without legs considered prone while moving on land? (barring certain 'serpentine' candidates like Merfolk)
Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.
It is implied that if you are prone, you can "Stand Up", but what if your anatomy has no "upright" position? It is certainly not express that only creatures with said upright position can be prone.
Further, while it is also implied that a prone creature must "crawl" to move, again, it is not expressly stated. A crawling creature is Prone, not the other way round.
Therefore, an aquatic creature(without legs*) should be considered Prone while on land, but not necessarily restricted to Crawling, as their mode of Base Speed inherently takes this into account since they cannot Stand Up.
Does seem like one of those house rules topics. Doubt there are any explicitly stated rules on these. And even with my opinions here I'm sure I'd change my mind on a case by case basis.
1. Short answer: Yes. If a creature has a land speed, I'd expect it to move on land with no penalties. This may be unrealistic for real life, but I assume it's for the sake of balancing that some creatures would work like this. Besides, prone land speed is evil stuff. There is no mention of special land movement for aquatic creatures, and I doubt the developers would force you to figure out an annoying land speed recalculation that isn't included with the creature.
2. No. I'd have to be on the side that says trip immune isn't prone immune. I'd imagine the creature would then be on it's side, or otherwise unbalanced. The latter being how you might trip a creature underwater. But that's a different & only somewhat related debate, sorry.
3. Nope.
I don't think much on these implications mentioned. I rather like to think that a listed land speed works for any creature, aquatic or not, as it would for a land creature. No need to complicate things.
My last thread was about secondary natural attacks with maneuvers(specifically Grab).
Why this is relevant to this discussion is that the few responses I got were pretty much in agreement that the maneuver also takes the -5 for being secondary even though the stat block(s) (and more generally, the rules) make no effort to remind you that this is the case. (Stat blocks give the full CMB, often additionally specific for Grapple. How many GMs are going to be thinking through every detail for every stat block to catch themselves on this?)
My point is that stat blocks are often rather opaque in this regard, so it's is entirely possible, imo, that aquatic creatures are forced to crawl while on land, and that the listed speed is simply there to increase the movement to more than 5ft per Move Action. (If you look, most of these creatures have a Base Speed of 20ft when one is listed).
This is a bit of a reversal from my OP, but I'm being more and more convinced that it's possibly the correct one. (If you didn't read the spoiler, I see nowhere in the description of Prone that it says a Prone creature can only move by crawling. To your point about tripping a swimming creature, it's right there in the Prone condition: "The character is lying on the ground."; therefore you cannot be tripped while swimming -- or rather, tripping has no effect on a swimming creature.)
At the very least, I'm inclined to deny aquatic creatures moving on land their Dex bonus to AC, but this has even less support within the rules.
I presume you are referring to Aquatic creatures that don't have legs. The rule for them, is the same as the rule for non-Aquatic creatures that don't have legs. If you don't have legs, you can't be tripped (and although it doesn't say explicitly, the prone condition does not apply.)
Being aquatic or not doesn't change this.
I don't see anything that automatically makes an aquatic creature without a land speed prone if it was on land. It wouldn't be able to move and probably would be suffocating. It would be reasonable to rule them as being prone as well, but the rules don't actually address that.
In any event, a creature that has a land speed can move and fight as normal on land.
My supposition is that these creatures are prone based on the description of the Prone condition.
To your assertion that they can't move, that is false.
One of these rules would apply, depending on the GM:
Crawling: wrote:
You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.
Minimum Movement: wrote:
Despite whatever penalties to movement you might have, you can take a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. This rule doesn't allow you to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited. Such movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal (despite the distance covered, this move isn't a 5-foot step).
I'm inclined to say the former, for a total possible movement of 10ft per round. (for some reason, likely a feat, I was under the impression crawling was 1/2 speed, so my comment in the last post isn't accurate :/)
But any creature can at a minimum use a full round to move 5ft (this movement provokes), unless subject to a condition that also applies "cannot move", such as Grappled.
The description of the prone condition is for characters, it is presuming bi-pedal humanoids. Some things that aren't bi-pedal humanoids can also have the prone condition of course, but there are some that cannot, even though (actually especially because) their normal method of locomotion is similar to the description of a bi-pedal humanoid when prone. Snakes for example (aquatic or not) may be 'lying on the ground.' But they do not get the prone. In any event, matching a description of a condition does not automatically apply that condition to you. Just because a stone golem is made of stone doesn't mean you apply the petrified condition to it.
Penalties to movement aren't the same as not having a speed for the environment you are in. If you don't have a swim speed, and you fail your swim check you make no progress, you can't make any progress. You can't spend a whole round to move 5' and not bother making swim checks. Essentially, if you don't have a speed for the terrain you are in all movement is prohibited (unless something like swim skill over-rides that.)
Penalties to movement aren't the same as not having a speed for the environment you are in. If you don't have a swim speed, and you fail your swim check you make no progress, you can't make any progress. You can't spend a whole round to move 5' and not bother making swim checks. Essentially, if you don't have a speed for the terrain you are in all movement is prohibited (unless something like swim skill over-rides that.)
It is basic English. Your speed (land speed) is how far you can move on land. If you don't have one, you can't move. Just like without a fly speed you can't fly.
Your minimum rule is an exception for when you have extreme penalties to movement. It does not apply to not having that movement type. For example, a merfolk character affected by a slow spell and in difficult terrain could, as a full round action move 5ft.
Merfolk by the way are not prone just because they are not in the water.
Now, as I said it is reasonable to aquatic creatures without legs and a land speed as being prone. Reasonable to allow them to crawl or move 5' as well. Just isn't part of RAW.
That did not contain the rule I asked for, it is a restatement of your opinion.
Where is the rule about moving without a Base Speed? You seem to be suggesting that it would require a skill check similar to Swim/Climb (likely Acrobatics), however no such rule exists.
The rules we do have say you can, at a minimum, move 5ft as a full round action if you are otherwise unable to move 5ft normally.
Also, you obviously did not read the OP, because I covered "serpentine" creatures in my exemptions. Snakes and snakelike creatures are not prone because even though they have no legs and are on the ground, they are not lying on the ground (in the sense that bipeds/others lay on the ground -- ie, the usage of the word in the description of Prone).
To your other example
Petrified wrote:
A petrified character has been turned to stone
It does not say made of stone. A creature has to have a form that is not stone(likely flesh) to ever gain this condition. (*Here comes the weird exception, I'm waiting!)
Edit: I honestly can't say much about Fly, however, I discount the need to include it in this discussion as gravity does not cease to take effect... I don't consider it outside of the rules to try, if you want to waste your turn "flying".\
Edit2: You also have not demonstrated the rule that says "Prone creatures can only move on land with the Crawling Action".
There isn't a rule that says not having a speed doesn't allow you to move. The rule is, having a speed is what allows you to move. You can move your speed each round and take a standard action.
If you don't have a speed, your speed is zero. You can't move. Movement in that environment is prohibited. Some forms of movement, namely swim and climb, can be accomplished via skills, but you still don't move as naturally as something with that form of movement, with specific penalties etc. Other forms of movement, such as burrow and fly, requires magic or something similar to be able to move in that environment at all.
If you normally have a speed, but penalties have reduced it to very low, you can, as you pointed out above, still move 5' as a full round action. the key things here are that it be penalties that reduce it so low (not a natural state of not being able to move) and that movement not be prohibited, which it is for any environment you don't have a speed for.
This is incorrect: "The rules we do have say you can, at a minimum, move 5ft as a full round action if you are otherwise unable to move 5ft normally." The actual rule, as you quoted above, applies only when penalties have reduced your movement AND you can move through that terrain AND are not prohibited from moving. A fish out of water fails on all three conditions.
