This is going to sound weird, but it seems legal to do. On your turn you ready a action to attack someone within your threatened square, then since you need to wait until you're turn is over, I guess if you already have an enemy in your threatened square, you need to wait to the next initiative order, and you can immediately use your readied action. You'd have your initiative changed, and could keep doing this keeping your order the same unless you waited or the next lowest went lower.
This is a legal thing, or any corrections? The condition would always be met since you started it met, so you could interrupt at any time to take it.
This doesnt make sense. If they are in your threatened squares then the ready action would go off. If you want to delay, just do that.
You can choose when you want to activate the readied action when the conditions are met. You can just hold or immediately take your action. You could interrupt actions to take your action as long as the interruption was keeping the conditions met.
Usually you trigger for stuff your not sble to apready do or you think will happen.
Ie if an enemy comes around a corner I attack him. If the wizard casts spells I attack him etc. You don't normally ready to just attack someone your already adjacent to.
I'm aware this isn't normal for the usage, but it's legal, correct?
If you ready an action with a particular condition X, it goes off when X becomes true. So, if a hostile orc is in your threatened area and you ready an action to strike as soon as an enemy is in your threatened area, well, congratulations, you get to strike. The net result is that you tossed out your move action for nothing.
I gotta say, though; it seems like you're dancing around some clever trick that you don't want to admit to. Spill the beans! : )
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
I guess what is making this difficult is it is unclear what goal is being achieved.
Bob is next to an orc with a great axe. Bob already has initiative on the orc what readied action is he declairing that a normal attack can't achieve.
I've already stated the thing, but I'll do so again. Just to be clear and I mean no offense to anyone, but I just wish to use the rules forum to discuss what is indeed legal or not. People often assume things from people and become derogatory and unhelpful to the thread which derails it. My questions don't necessarily reflect anything outside of a simple question.
So, Bob is in combat with Andy. Bob moves next to Andy, and readies a standard action to attack a target that is in Bob's threatened area. Bob just waits until his turn is over so he may get into his readied action. By the rules I believe he is forced to at least wait until the very next initiative score that exists, and not any Bob chooses before the next or after (such as if Bob is 20, and Andy is 4, Bob can't just say he acts on 19). So, on Andy's initiative, Bob takes his standard action to attack Andy, because the conditions are met, and Bob chooses to do it. Andy then completes his turn, and Bob shares the same score in initiative as Andy, but is before Andy.
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I see what you're getting at. You're trying to manipulate your position in the initiative order.
Your readied action phraseology is off.
Readying is an IF/THEN type thing. ("To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.")
IF the monster is in my threatened area, THEN I will attack.
Well, the monster is your threatened area and it triggers your readied action to attack. You may activate your readied action, or decline it. If declined, 99.9% of GMs will say the one-time condition trigger has been sprung and your readied action is lost.
What you would want to do is either DELAY until just before Andy's turn or move then Ready An Action to attack if Andy takes any actions. Both of those would would put you ahead of Andy in the initiative order.
I don't believe that the readied action goes off unless I choose to take the readied action. I could just choose to not take it, and then perhaps Jimmy shows up, and I could hit him when he meets my conditions if I do choose.
I am not concerned with delay. This is about readied actions specifically.
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
I think you are misreading that to mean that you can decline to take the readied action and then go ahead and take it if another triggering event occurs. That is not the case. If you ready an action when the triggering event occurs you have two options, take the readied action or decline and lose the action.
So if you ready an action to attack whoever comes through a door and an ally comes through the door you can either hit your ally or decline but you can't decline and then still get your readied attack when the Orc following your ally comes through.
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Let me help out here, the part you are missing is "This action occurs just before the action that triggers it."
You have to ready an action in response to an Action, not to some pre-existing condition.
You cannot ready an action for something that has already occurred because you can't go back in time to hit them before they got there. Even with PFS immediate action physics.
If you want to ready an action for when the Orc moves into your threatened square then it won't go off unless the Orc actually Moves into a new threatened square.
I don't know what shenanigans you are trying to pull, but the rules are against it. Even if you could count said Orc being in the threatened square as a trigger, you can't "hold" it till whenever you want to go because even if you could, it still goes off BEFORE the "action."
My guess is you are trying to ready an action for some unknown event that you want to go before. If this is the case, stop trying to cheat the system, because this would be cheating the system. Just Hold Action, you will have to settle for acting AFTER whatever is going to happen.
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Note: This wordy post of mine has probably been ninja'd by now.
So, Bob is in combat with Andy.
Rawr!
Bob moves next to Andy,
and readies a standard action to attack a target that is in Bob's threatened area.
I don't see a condition specified here. The rules for readying an action say:
"To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it."I see where you've specified the action you'll take ("attack a target that is in Bob's threatened area"), but I don't see the condition under which you would take that action. Additionally, I think you need to be a little more specific about that action, in case there come to be multiple creatures in Bob's threatened area.
I wonder if perhaps what you meant to say could be "I ready an action to attack Andy when he's in my threatened area"? If so, then you have your action ("attack Andy") and your condition ("when he's in my threatened area"). I'll proceed from here assuming that's what you meant, but if it's not, then you'll probably need to disregard the rest of my post and clarify.
Bob just waits until his turn is over so he may get into his readied action.
I presume this is a reference to this line from the rules?
"The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over..."Looks good so far.
By the rules I believe he is forced to at least wait until the very next initiative score that exists, and not any Bob chooses before the next or after (such as if Bob is 20, and Andy is 4, Bob can't just say he acts on 19).
I don't see such a rule. Can you show me? What I see is:
"Then, anytime before your next action..."If I missed something, please, point me to it.
So, on Andy's initiative, Bob takes his standard action to attack Andy, because the conditions are met, and Bob chooses to do it.
Kapow!
Andy then completes his turn, and Bob shares the same score in initiative as Andy, but is before Andy.
"Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action."
Looks correct to me.So... was that it? Aside from what I've already mentioned, looks legit. But I don't see much point, unless you're using the stuff I wrote HERE.
"For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action."
Seems clear to me you may decline and wait to take your action whenever the conditions are met. The trigger would be on until it turns off by not existing anymore, or you took it.
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If the general effect is Andy readying an action to go off "whenever I feel like it" (i.e., the condition makes "ready" into "delay with interrupt"), the GM can and should disallow that condition. In any case, technically the condition would occur immediately, so either Andy takes his readied action or he misses his chance. Nothing in the rules states that Andy gets to continue waiting for the condition after the first instance of it happening. If you decline, you just don't get to do anything until your next turn comes up (on your original initiative).
If Andy's player just wants to make sure that Andy's initiative is always* just before Bob's, Andy can simply delay until his initiative score is one higher than Bob's.
*Mostly. Bob might share an initiative score with another character, or someone else might use ready or delay to change their score.
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"For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action."
Seems clear to me you may decline and wait to take your action whenever the conditions are met. The trigger would be on until it turns off by not existing anymore, or you took it.
That rule does not imply that conclusion, and I don't understand how you think it does.
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Let me help out here, the part you are missing is "This action occurs just before the action that triggers it."
Drake has just pointed out where the whole idea falls down. Readied actions are triggered by other actions, not actual conditions. Those actions aren't necessarily "move" actions or "standard" actions, but they are nonetheless actions.
"I ready a fireball for if an enemy becomes visible in this room."
This is triggered by the action of ceasing to be invisible. It is not triggered by someone in the room who is already visible.
"I ready a trip attempt for the first enemy who comes through this doorway."
This is triggered by an enemy (ie. not an ally) doing movement through the doorway. It is not triggered by someone who is already standing in the doorway, nor by an ally.
The ability to decline to take your readied action is to cover the event that conditions have changed since you readied your action. "I ready a finger of death for the first creature that comes over the hill." What happens when it turns out a horde of orcs are chasing your mother and she's the first one over the hill? The "may" allows you to decline to commit matricide.
So no, you don't get to change initiative order by readying for an event that is already taking place. That's what delay is for.
I'm still wondering what the point of what he's trying to do is. If his goal is to have Bob act just right before Andy.. Then, by all means just delay your action to the initiative right before Andy.
Why add the unnecessary layer of complication that probably isn't legal anyway?
...not actual conditions.To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
If you go just one more sentence further:
"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it."
Seems the condition must be an action
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What would be the point. Initiative scores are just used to establish what order everyone goes in at the start of the battle. Once battle has started, your initiative scores are irrelevant, you just go in initiative order. Otherwise you could do crazy stuff like: My hunter takes total defense this round, next round I delay until after Tom goes, my initiative is now one less than his. Then I switch my hunters blessing to Dex as a swift action, this raises my initiative mod by two, putting me one initiative higher than Tom, and I get to hit him again before his turn comes around...
So there really is no mechanical difference between "Bob goes on 20 before Andy on 4" and "Bob goes on 4 before Andy at 4."
Jiggy, I am uncertain about the timing, which is why I stated the order number as an assumption. Could I choose exactly what number, even if it's the number I'm currently on?
Still, I doubt that the phrase "Bob moves next to Andy, and readies a standard action to attack a target that is in Bob's threatened area." Is a valid use of readying an action. There is no action by which to initiate a response action.
A better option would be "Bob moves next to Andy, and readies a standard action to attack Andy if he does anything."
At least with that statement, there is an observable action in which to respond to.
Granted a lot of GM's, myself included would force Bob to be more specific. "Does anything" is a little too vague by my standards.
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Jiggy, I am uncertain about the timing, which is why I stated the order number as an assumption. Could I choose exactly what number, even if it's the number I'm currently on?
I'm sure this post probably makes sense to you as a real-time reply to whatever portion of whatever post you just read, but as it stands I have no idea what you're trying to ask. Could you try again, either being more explicit or at least quoting what exactly you're replying to, or perhaps both?
Jiggy, I am uncertain about the timing, which is why I stated the order number as an assumption. Could I choose exactly what number, even if it's the number I'm currently on?
I'm not trying to be rude, but seriously... What's the point? what you want to do is clearly already doable by Delaying your action to before Andy. There is no reason to do what you are asking.
What would be the point. Initiative scores are just used to establish what order everyone goes in at the start of the battle. Once battle has started, your initiative scores are irrelevant, you just go in initiative order. Otherwise you could do crazy stuff like: My hunter takes total defense this round, next round I delay until after Tom goes, my initiative is now one less than his. Then I switch my hunters blessing to Dex as a swift action, this raises my initiative mod by two, putting me one initiative higher than Tom, and I get to hit him again before his turn comes around...
So there really is no mechanical difference between "Bob goes on 20 before Andy on 4" and "Bob goes on 4 before Andy at 4."
In the PBP I'm GM-ing, I make the initiative number pretty much irrelevant.. It is only useful for determine the initial order of events.. Afterward, It never comes into play at all. If you delay and say I want to go after or before player X, you do. If you say I ready to attack when a monster comes into view.. guess what, your initiative is now before the monster.
The number only matters to set the initial order. People seem to take the initiative numbers too literally sometimes.
Jiggy, I am uncertain about the timing, which is why I stated the order number as an assumption. Could I choose exactly what number, even if it's the number I'm currently on?I'm sure this post probably makes sense to you as a real-time reply to whatever portion of whatever post you just read, but as it stands I have no idea what you're trying to ask. Could you try again, either being more explicit or at least quoting what exactly you're replying to, or perhaps both?
concerning this and your reply to it.
"By the rules I believe he is forced to at least wait until the very next initiative score that exists, and not any Bob chooses before the next or after (such as if Bob is 20, and Andy is 4, Bob can't just say he acts on 19)."
People who are in the thread saying that this is useless and asking what the point is, please stop doing that. Discuss the question, and figure out correct rules as they exist. People want to figure out a way to derail a thread, and I won't give it to them.
I've given you my answer to your question in POST #26
No, you can not do a readied action in the manner you phrased it. A readied action must be a response to another action. "Being in a threatened square" is not an action.
I'm still confused as to your end-game with this thread. It seems you have an ulterior motive that you want this thread to validate for you.
There is no rule stating you must wait until the next initiative count. Readied actions are triggered when their triggering action occurs. This *may* be after the end of your turn (and is after all the only reason to ready instead of just acting).
Also, there are various feats which grant bonuses on readied actions that do not work on non-readied actions. This may provide one possible reason for wanting this to work. Alas, it doesn't work, for the many reasons pointed out above.
EDIT: Also, context can be important, Human Fighter - this is why people are asking. We may be able to help you find a way to accomplish what you want. Refusing to answer tends to trigger the spidey-senses of folks who see this over and over: "The forums said this" being used to bully GMs into allowing a sketchy rules use. That may not be the case, but frankly you do no one a service by withholding information in the discussion. Rules aren't interpreted exactly the same in all cases. Context is important.
The numbers can matter after just rarely. If bob and sue fight andy sue goes fist bob and andy tie init but andy has a higher dex andy goes before bob. On her turn sue casts haste. Bobs init now goes in front of andy because haste changed bobs init.
This doednt happen a lot though. And ultimately going at the end of the round vs beginning only matters at the start.
As far as the readied action thing. I don't get what he's trying to accomplish.
Readied actions are usually clear statements of when x happens I do y.
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Jiggy, I am uncertain about the timing, which is why I stated the order number as an assumption. Could I choose exactly what number, even if it's the number I'm currently on?I'm sure this post probably makes sense to you as a real-time reply to whatever portion of whatever post you just read, but as it stands I have no idea what you're trying to ask. Could you try again, either being more explicit or at least quoting what exactly you're replying to, or perhaps both?concerning this and your reply to it.
"By the rules I believe he is forced to at least wait until the very next initiative score that exists, and not any Bob chooses before the next or after (such as if Bob is 20, and Andy is 4, Bob can't just say he acts on 19)."
There's nothing in the rules to suggest you can choose a number. The only reference to specific initiative counts is when it talks about what happens once you've taken your readied action (that is, that your initiative moves), and that's framed as a result of having taken your action, not as an element of choice. Whatever initiative count we're on when you take your readied action, that's your new initiative count. That's the only reference to initiative counts in the readying rules, so anything else (like picking a number) would be something you'd have to come up with yourself and is outside the rules.
Im guessing that english is not his first language. I think this is about going on the same initiative but before someone.
So, on Andy's initiative, Bob takes his standard action to attack Andy, because the conditions are met, and Bob chooses to do it. Andy then completes his turn, and Bob shares the same score in initiative as Andy, but is before Andy.
If you are doing this because andy is a caster then you need to ready an action to attack him when he cast a spell. Just because you share initiative with someone does not mean your attacks always count to interrupt the spellcasters. Im assuming this is his goal, since he has not been clear about it. If its not about that, you can ignore my post.
People are still confused about what you are trying to achieve.
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The numbers can matter after just rarely. If bob and sue fight andy sue goes fist bob and andy tie init but andy has a higher dex andy goes before bob. On her turn sue casts haste. Bobs init now goes in front of andy because haste changed bobs init.
I'm not entirly sure that is correct, I would need to go recheck the rules. I thought once the order was set, it did not change except through ready or delay.
The numbers can matter after just rarely. If bob and sue fight andy sue goes fist bob and andy tie init but andy has a higher dex andy goes before bob. On her turn sue casts haste. Bobs init now goes in front of andy because haste changed bobs init.
First, Haste does nothing to change anybodies initiative modifier.
Second, Initiative is checked only once. At the start of battle. Ties are addressed then and then only. If sue cast something that boost bob's dex AFTER initiative has already been determined, it has no effect on initiative order.
The only thing that changes your initiative after the first roll are special initiative actions (Delay, Ready).
*Edit - Ninja'd, but I'll add the relevant rules:
...In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).
Yes, butThe ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
"You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. "
These two conditionals overlap - one says "after your turn but before your next one", and one just says "before your next turn".
My point was that the readied action is triggered when the triggering condition occurs. If (for some reason) the triggering event occurred after you had readied an action but before your turn ended, it would trigger before your turn ended.
The point for THIS thread is that readied actions trigger in response to actual observable events, and not on meta-numbers like specific initiative counts or conditions which are already ongoing.
I'm not entirly sure that is correct, I would need to go recheck the rules. I thought once the order was set, it did not change except through ready or delay.
Not sure what the rule is, but my group runs it that way. After the dice show the order, thats the order, the numbers of what you rolled dont matter anymore.
These two conditionals overlap - one says "after your turn but before your next one", and one just says "before your next turn".
My point was that the readied action is triggered when the triggering condition occurs. If (for some reason) the triggering event occurred after you had readied an action but before your turn ended, it would trigger before your turn ended.
It seems clear that if one says X+Y and the other just says Y. I'd use the X+Y, as the just Y was an obvious omission.
After your turn but before your next one is the proper use for readied actions.
Besides, I'm struggling to determine just what valid triggering event could possibly trigger after you readied your action but before your turn was over.
Jiggy, I am uncertain about the timing, which is why I stated the order number as an assumption. Could I choose exactly what number, even if it's the number I'm currently on?
Here is what I believe Human Fighter is saying:
Character A can ready an action to attack with the condition being "when an enemy occupies a square I threaten".
This condition could be met by someone currently already being in a threatened square or by someone moving into a threatened square.
After Character A's turn ends if someone is already in a threatened square the readied action triggers on the very next initiative count.
Human Fighter then thinks that since the rules say you MAY take the readied action that on that next initiative count he can decline to take the readied action and then play advances to the next initiative count and since the enemy is still in a square threatened by Character A the readied action triggers again since he declined it the first time and he now has the choice to attack or decline again. By declining each time until he gets the initiative count he wants he can pick a number.
He is wanting to know if that is legal. HF please me know if I am misunderstanding your position or question.
The above scenario is NOT legal. The way it actually works is
1) Character A chooses to use the Ready action. With a Ready action you specify another action and the condition under which you will take that action when the Ready action triggers. Character A chooses "attack" as the other action and "when an enemy occupies a square I threaten" as the condition.
2) When Character A's turn ends if an enemy occupies a threatened square the Ready action triggers. It is important to note that it is the Ready action that triggers and the character has no choice. It automatically happens when the specified condition occurs. As a result of the Ready action triggering the character may now either a) make the specified attack action or b) decline to make the attack action. Regardless the Ready action triggered and will not trigger again. Therefore, no you cannot choose what initiative count to take the action you specified when you performed the Ready action.
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Human Fighter then thinks that since the rules say you MAY take the readied action that on that next initiative count he can decline to take the readied action and then play advances to the next initiative count and since the enemy is still in a square threatened by Character A the readied action triggers again since he declined it the first time and he now has the choice to attack or decline again. By declining each time until he gets the initiative count he wants he can pick a number.
Ah, okay.
In that case, his error is the assumption that if the readying rules give him the choice once, then he'll keep getting the choice over and over until he answers "yes".
Human Fighter, there is nothing in the text to suggest this.
It says that once the trigger comes up, you may take your readied action. It does NOT say that each time the trigger comes up you get the choice until you take it. It also does not say that if you decline you can wait until the next trigger and get the option again.
It says that once the trigger comes up, you can take it or not.
That's all it says you can do, so that's all you can do.
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As a side note, I would point out that the Ready rules describe the trigger alternately as a "condition" or an "action", using the terms interchangeably. This makes it clear that they're not using the "game term" definitions of condition or action (the two would be mutually-exclusive; what action type is the sickened condition?) and are therefore using the plain-English definitions. This means that whatever you pick as your trigger has to be something which, in plain English, can reasonably be described as both a condition and an action.
A static state of being fails to meet that criterion.
What he's trying to donis get two actions before the target.
Andy goes before bob. Bob moves next to andy declairs his ready action imediately gets an attack and his init moves in front of andy.
Bob is now getting his next action and full attacks andy before andy.
Pretty sure this isn't what readied actions are intended for.
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Yes, butThe ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun."You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. "These two conditionals overlap - one says "after your turn but before your next one", and one just says "before your next turn".
The line you bolded doesn't say what you said it says.
The line you're referencing says "before your next action".
That's not the same as saying "before your next turn".
So the line I quoted says your readied action has to occur after your current turn and before your next one, and then the line you cited adds the additional restriction that you can't take any other actions in between readying and having it go off.
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I'm aware this isn't normal for the usage, but it's legal, correct?It would be better to specify exactly what you're trying accomplish in the end.
We have already been there. He will always reply that there any specific intent, he only want to check the rules.
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@ Human Fighter
Yes, AFAIK it is allowed.
EDIT: Actually I was wrong, Drake Brimstone and Jiggy gave the right answer.
Well, the monster is your threatened area and it triggers your readied action to attack. You may activate your readied action, or decline it. If declined, 99.9% of GMs will say the one-time condition trigger has been sprung and your readied action is lost.
Never saw a GM interpreting it that way. The ready action say: "Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition." and " If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again)." but I don't see anywhere "if you choose not to take your readied action at that time and the readied action is triggered again you can't take the readied action at a later time."
1) Character A chooses to use the Ready action. With a Ready action you specify another action and the condition under which you will take that action when the Ready action triggers. Character A chooses "attack" as the other action and "when an enemy occupies a square I threaten" as the condition
This is not a valid condition in which to ready an action. Your action must be in response to another action. A person simply occupying a square in front of you is not an action in which you can respond to.
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.
Examples of valid Readying Actions:
"If someone enters my threatened area, I attack.""If he starts casting a spell, I attack"
"If the baby falls from the ledge, I catch it"
"When the invisible person becomes visible, I attack"
"When the earth elemental provides an opening, I attack"
*Edited to remove the word "charge"