Shades and Protection from Evil

[Christopher Van Horn]

Was wondering about this. How does a Shades, or shadow conjuration, summoned creature interact with Protection from Evil or its ilk. These spells mimic summoning spells but since they are illusion spells and not actual conjuration spells does Protection from evil actually offer any protection against them?

I'm on the fence on this one and it brings up an interesting question, if a spell is copied by a different spell, do the immunities carry over if the spell that does the copying is not the spell in question? (ie I am immune to finger of death, say by spell immunity, but does that stop a caster using wish to get a finger of death affect?)

Does me believing it is real grant protection since it is then behaving in all ways as the intended spell and I believe myself to be immune? This one I think no on but that would also be an awesome side effect.

[blahpers]

Quote:

A shadow creature has one-fifth the hit points of a normal creature of its kind (regardless of whether it's recognized as shadowy). It deals normal damage and has all normal abilities and weaknesses. Against a creature that recognizes it as a shadow creature, however, the shadow creature's damage is one-fifth (20%) normal, and all special abilities that do not deal lethal damage are only 20% likely to work. (Roll for each use and each affected character separately.) Furthermore, the shadow creature's AC bonuses are just one-fifth as large. A creature that succeeds on its save sees the shadow conjurations as transparent images superimposed on vague, shadowy forms. Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell.

Given that the spell is mimicking a summoning spell and that the creature has all the normal abilities and weaknesses, protection from evil should repel the creature just as it repels an actual summoned monster.

[Christopher Van Horn]

blahpers wrote:

Quote:

A shadow creature has one-fifth the hit points of a normal creature of its kind (regardless of whether it's recognized as shadowy). It deals normal damage and has all normal abilities and weaknesses. Against a creature that recognizes it as a shadow creature, however, the shadow creature's damage is one-fifth (20%) normal, and all special abilities that do not deal lethal damage are only 20% likely to work. (Roll for each use and each affected character separately.) Furthermore, the shadow creature's AC bonuses are just one-fifth as large. A creature that succeeds on its save sees the shadow conjurations as transparent images superimposed on vague, shadowy forms. Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell.

Given that the spell is mimicking a summoning spell and that the creature has all the normal abilities and weaknesses, protection from evil should repel the creature just as it repels an actual summoned monster.

Except that would be the creatures abilities and weaknesses, like vulnerability to fire, not the spells weaknesses as those are not normal to the creature itself. You would get the +2 armor boosts against it for the alignment I suppose, but does it count as a summoned creature or an illusion?

[blahpers]

I suppose you could quibble about the meaning of "weaknesses" if you like, but the fact remains that you're mimicking a specific spell when you cast shadow conjuration. Everything entailed by the specific spell still applies--save the specific modifications mentioned by shadow conjuration.

As for whether it counts as a summoned creature or an illusion--both.

[Lifat]

No idea about RAW... But as far as I can tell I'd agree with Blahpers on this, at least for RAI. I think that is how I'd run it in my game anyway, untill someone came along and proved me wrong. In which case I'd consider running it the other way.

[wraithstrike]

I agree with Blaphers also. The "simulated" spell acts just like the real version except for where the shadow spells specifically say otherwise.

[Christopher Van Horn]

Round 2: Does Augment Summoning apply? What is the difference between Wish (which I would rule is basically copying a spell effect or casting the spell wanted) versus a spell that only mimics the effects of without being the chosen spell the way shades does?

[ryric]

I guess the real question here is: Are the things made by shadow conjuration actually creatures? An argument could be made that they're bits of shadow with an illusion over them to make them look like creatures.

I'm going to go with "there is some sort of creature there" as shadow creatures are affected by mind-affecting spells, for example. So protection from evil will block body contact fom evil shadow conjured critters.

Augment Summoning says you must use a summon spell; I would think the shadow spells are not that.

[ShoulderPatch]

(edited since re-reading text of all 'shadow' line spells)

I would say probably (table variation) to protection from evil working against and possibly (table variation) to augment summoning working for [hit FAQ, it is not strictly clear either way].

"Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower."

If it's mimicking the spell, the simplest RAI is "Make the spell exactly as if it had been cast normal then modify by the text of Shadow Conjuration". Thus Aug. Summon would work for a caster with it, and Protection from X would work against (and alignment restrictions would come into play). Basically, if one works so must the other. Ditto alignment restrictions.

However "A shadow creature has one-fifth the hit points of a normal creature of its kind (regardless of whether it's recognized as shadowy). It deals normal damage and has all normal abilities and weaknesses. " uses the word 'normal' a lot, even though 'normal' could be construed two different ways.

So it would hinge on if the definition of 'normal' creature of that type is relative to the caster of augment summon and his victims (to whom mimicking the summoning spells normal to he and his victims would be with the bonus conventionally ) or 'normal' to strictly the bestiary entry, and in "specific > general" if the specific is the spell or the feat in this case. (I lean spell but that's just an opinion, I can see either interpretation as reasonable).

Anyone know what PFS's answer is?

[Christopher Van Horn]

ryric wrote:

I guess the real question here is: Are the things made by shadow conjuration actually creatures? An argument could be made that they're bits of shadow with an illusion over them to make them look like creatures.

I'm going to go with "there is some sort of creature there" as shadow creatures are affected by mind-affecting spells, for example. So protection from evil will block body contact fom evil shadow conjured critters.

Augment Summoning says you must use a summon spell; I would think the shadow spells are not that.

I am of this mindset as well, which leads to the final bit which is what about alignment issues? Can a cleric cast it to summon a "creature" that isn't real of an alignment not normally allowed?