I have been working on a Chaotic Good Paladin Alternate Class named "Champion of the Kami" for awhile now. I am looking for feedback of any type, however if I could request it, I would appreciate that any feedback include specific comments rather than just "I hate it..." or "Great!".
I am hoping with some constructive criticism this can really shine.
Thank you to everyone in advance.
I may have missed it, but how does the companion work? Does it progress like a druid or ranger's companion, or more like a familiar?
Biggest potential problem I see is balance. You've increased the skill points. What balances that? Several of Kami's Blessings give a primary class ability, ranger's combat style, in place of a secondary ability, paladin's spellcasting. Take a look at some of the ranger or paladin archtypes that replace spellcasting with something else and see if what you are giving is proportional.
I do like that you added a requirement to the code that is restive, no mind-tweaking. I think you'll have some snarls in regards to using force to oppose but not dictate.
I may have missed it, but how does the companion work? Does it progress like a druid or ranger's companion, or more like a familiar?
A champion's companion advances like a druids companion, I basically modified the divine bond ability from paladin. It is listed in the second portion of the Kami's Hand ability.
Biggest potential problem I see is balance. You've increased the skill points. What balances that? Several of Kami's Blessings give a primary class ability, ranger's combat style, in place of a secondary ability, paladin's spellcasting. Take a look at some of the ranger or paladin archtypes that replace spellcasting with something else and see if what you are giving is proportional.
For the increase in skill points that is an artifact of my house rules, my apologies. I have boosted all 2+ skill point classes to 4+ except wizard and witch.
As for balance I agree that is a very valid concern. I am worried that some of the Kami may be either too weak or too strong. However giving up spell-casting was I thought a serious sacrifice. It is affecting a Paladin in my home game severely due to his current inability to use wands/scrolls/staves.
Also comparing the loss/gain ratio for spell-casting versus what is gained when casting is forfeited in existing archetypes(Stone Lord, Warrior of the Holy Light), I must admit I am less than impressed.
I am in no way trying to argue with you or disparage your input, I simply am trying to communicate that I have been considering the trade-offs for this class and am still doing so.
I do like that you added a requirement to the code that is restive, no mind-tweaking. I think you'll have some snarls in regards to using force to oppose but not dictate.
I agree, the code is still thorny, perhaps even more-so than a traditional paladin's due to its ability to be interpreted differently by different people. I do hope however that people can enjoy it by reaching a consensus at each table.
I know that this may be hopelessly optimistic however I have found in my personal experience that conversation between GM and player before, during and after a game is absolutely vital in a Paladin's case as even their code is so open to interpretation. I am just hoping others can apply that rubric to this code.
I deeply appreciate your input and am considering it as I will consider any further feedback you are willing to give.
Again, my thanks.
I would really appreciate some feedback on the Fox and Eagle Kami if anyone is interested.
Regarding the Code, I think that having the potential to fall if your allies use "mind-warping magic or abilities" might be a bit problematic.
This seems like it might result in either:
1) The Champion frequently coming into conflict with the rest of the party for using fairly common spells, like charm person.
2) The rest of the party to having to "build around" the Champion--deliberately not learning or using several common offensive mind-affecting spells.
3) The rest of the party having to "play around" the Champion, getting him/her out of the way in order to use their spells as they want to. My brief stint playing a paladin has taught me that this gets annoying.
I'm not sure if these are intended consequences or not. Just thought I should voice my concern, as this looks like an interesting class, and I'd hate for it to ruin anyone's fun.
I'll look more into fox later.
Eagle... I am a bit worried that it makes archery a bit too powerful. The major issues, as I see them (note that, individually, some of these or a combination of should be entirely reasonable):
1) An Eagle Champion becomes extremely mobile with flight, eventually being able to use it at will.
2) Adding Dex to damage removes the need to invest in strength, and allows you to increase your offensive and defensive abilities at the same time (through dex bonuses to AC)
3) Far-Reaching Talons wouldn't be on this list if you weren't already flying (thereby allowing you to stay out of reach of most non-flying opponents, with the exception of casters (who are probably squishy enough that they don't present much of a threat)
3) Penetrating Beak deals with other classes' answers to archery without fail and can typically be used between 5 and 10 times a day at the time you first get it. The fact that it expends one Wash Clean per use would typically mean that you trade some survivability for damage. However, you probably aren't going to be taking much damage in the first place, as your flight and increased range means that most opponents probably can't reach you and you'll likely have high AC and good saves to deal with those who can.
It just seems...too good at what it does.
Regarding the Code, I think that having the potential to fall if your allies use "mind-warping magic or abilities" might be a bit problematic.
This seems like it might result in either:
1) The Champion frequently coming into conflict with the rest of the party for using fairly common spells, like charm person.
2) The rest of the party to having to "build around" the Champion--deliberately not learning or using several common offensive mind-affecting spells.
3) The rest of the party having to "play around" the Champion, getting him/her out of the way in order to use their spells as they want to. My brief stint playing a paladin has taught me that this gets annoying.
I'm not sure if these are intended consequences or not. Just thought I should voice my concern, as this looks like an interesting class, and I'd hate for it to ruin anyone's fun.
I agree that the Champion's code will cause changes in party structure/build. I do realize that it is possible for this to cause problems, and yes it was intentional that mind magic is anathema to them.
I honestly think that yes there will be some of this in play, I just hope that as with a group including a paladin the players can find a good mix and have fun.
This is not to say that I am against tweaking the code, and perhaps I need to make it more clear. For example a Champion would hate the use of say Dominate person, but sleep would most likely be fine as it would be functionally similar to knocking someone out, thereby using force to oppose them.
Very grey area I feel and perhaps I should make it more clear.
I'll look more into fox later.
I appreciate this.
Eagle... I am a bit worried that it makes archery a bit too powerful. The major issues, as I see them (note that, individually, some of these or a combination of should be entirely reasonable):
1) An Eagle Champion becomes extremely mobile with flight, eventually being able to use it at will.
2) Adding Dex to damage removes the need to invest in strength, and allows you to increase your offensive and defensive abilities at the same time (through dex bonuses to AC)
3) Far-Reaching Talons wouldn't be on this list if you weren't already flying (thereby allowing you to stay out of reach of most non-flying opponents, with the exception of casters (who are probably squishy enough that they don't present much of a threat)
3) Penetrating Beak deals with other classes' answers to archery without fail and can typically be used between 5 and 10 times a day at the time you first get it. The fact that it expends one Wash Clean per use would typically mean that you trade some survivability for damage. However, you probably aren't going to be taking much damage in the first place, as your flight and increased range means that most opponents probably can't reach you and you'll likely have high AC and good saves to deal with those who can.
It just seems...too good at what it does.
I agree with you on all points and have been thinking of rewriting eagle, however my writing circle and playtesters had asked me to get some outside feedback. I am glad to see that I am not crazy and it does seem too strong.
1.) The mobility was intended, however I have been concerned it was too much. I did try to line it up to where most people have the ability to fly as required.
2.) I agree with you on the Dex to damage, however it does scale slowly and I had several points of feedback from players asking for a similar mechanic. I will keep an eye on this and rerun some numbers.
3.)I like far reaching talons, and in all honesty am unlikely to change it, as I will much more likely change almost any other eagle ability first. I just feel that it is the only ability I may have "just right" in eagle at the moment.
4.) Penetrating beak is too good I agree. Would it work in your opinion if the Eagle Champion had to expend a use of smite evil? I would most likely make it longer than one round if so. Or would you recommend just rewriting the ability?
I really appreciate your feedback, as this is exactly the kind of data I need.
My thanks, and I promise I am actually looking at the areas you have highlighted.
I agree that Far-Reaching Talons is definitely the least troublesome of the four abilities I listed.
As for Penetrating Beak... That's a tough one to balance.
Tying it to Kami's Wrath/Smite Evil would definitely deal with the problem of a Champion being able to ignore a caster's best defenses against archers pretty much all day, as they could if it spent a use of Wash Clean. This means that you can use it 4-7 times a day (depending on level) and do so by expending a use of a more powerful ability.
Also, although you didn't explicitly stat it for Penetrating Beak, I would assume that using Penetrating Beak also requires a swift action, correct?
With that in mind, the problem with making it longer is that, in all likelihood, you will probably be dealing enough damage to your target over the course of one round (assuming a full-round attack and that you have optimized yourself for archery) that you may as well be outright dispelling the effect that is protecting the caster if it lasts for more than that one round. Granted, there is also the possibility that your champion could end up fighting something somewhat beefier that has spells, but I don't think that a dragon (just as an example) is typically going to be casting fickle winds or entropic shield to protect itself.
Maybe if it required a move action to use and/or maintain, it wouldn't be quite as bad? Without the additional damage from full-round attacks, the idea of using Penetrating Beak to repeatedly ignore a magical effect that most likely required a standard action and/or a limited resource, such as a spell slot or use of a spell-like ability isn't quite so unreasonable.
Still looking at fox, by the way.
I agree that Far-Reaching Talons is definitely the least troublesome of the four abilities I listed.
As for Penetrating Beak... That's a tough one to balance.
Tying it to Kami's Wrath/Smite Evil would definitely deal with the problem of a Champion being able to ignore a caster's best defenses against archers pretty much all day, as they could if it spent a use of Wash Clean. This means that you can use it 4-7 times a day (depending on level) and do so by expending a use of a more powerful ability.
Also, although you didn't explicitly stat it for Penetrating Beak, I would assume that using Penetrating Beak also requires a swift action, correct?
With that in mind, the problem with making it longer is that, in all likelihood, you will probably be dealing enough damage to your target over the course of one round (assuming a full-round attack and that you have optimized yourself for archery) that you may as well be outright dispelling the effect that is protecting the caster if it lasts for more than that one round. Granted, there is also the possibility that your champion could end up fighting something somewhat beefier that has spells, but I don't think that a dragon (just as an example) is typically going to be casting fickle winds or entropic shield to protect itself.
Maybe if it required a move action to use and/or maintain, it wouldn't be quite as bad? Without the additional damage from full-round attacks, the idea of using Penetrating Beak to repeatedly ignore a magical effect that most likely required a standard action and/or a limited resource, such as a spell slot or use of a spell-like ability isn't quite so unreasonable.
Still looking at fox, by the way.
Humm this is a valid and succinct argument. I think tying it to Kami's Wrath is the way to go, but you may have a point and I will perhaps leave it a one round and gather some playtest data.
Also I appreciate the directed critique and am looking forward to your fox review.
I will of course gladly consider any other views you have on any portion of the document.
My sincere appreciation goes out to you for your time and effort on this project.
It's no trouble. It's good practice for me, since I've been trying to get into game design and, while I've learned a decent amount about programming, my classes haven't spent quite as much time on designing and balancing game mechanics.
As for the fox, I will make some comparisons to the Magus and possibly also to the Bloodrager from the ACG playtest, which are both the closest alternatives as spell-casting martial characters.
Blessed Friend:
You seem to be trading a combat-capable animal companion or the ability to enhance your weapon for a familiar. To be fair, you get it at level 1, instead of level 5, and alertness is nice. Still, you're a full-BAB character who can wear up to medium armor (and still cast spells) and will likely be in melee (unless you plan on primarily using a ranged weapon and/or spells). This means that your familiar is probably going to either be with you (and likely in harm's way) or will need to hang back.
This is, of course, assuming that your DM doesn't just assume that your familiar is hidden somewhere safe on your person at all times, in which case most of the downsides pretty much go away. Overall, it seems like a reasonable trade to swap out an animal companion for a familiar.
Kit's Birthright:
Useful for an arcane caster.
Adroit Casting and Occult Arms:
Both of these abilities make this choice viable. You wouldn't want to give up your armor to gain arcane spells, and as a full-BAB character, you want to be able to actually use your weapons, so not having to put them away or even keep a hand free to cast your spells (like the magus) is nice.
Nine Tails:
More spells and a grater variety of spells is certainly nice, though it comes online at level 20, which is a bit late.
Overall:
It actually seems like it spreads itself a bit thin. A few issues
1) Ability Scores:
You use INT for your spell-casting, but CHA for your class abilities. Plus, as a character also intended to engage in martial combat, you want decent CON and a solid STR and/or DEX score.
2) Fighting vs. Casting:
Like the Magus, you are intended to be able to cast spells and attack with your weapons. However, unlike the magus, you don't get anything like spell strike or spell combat that lets you cast a spell and attack in the same round. Given the Champion's other class abilities, you seem to be more effective at attacking than casting spells in combat as a Champion of the Kami. This is kind of a shame, since you have included some pretty good combat spells and buff spells. I suppose if you're out of range and can't charge at an enemy they might still see some use, though.
Now, comparing the Champion to the Bloodrager
- both have full BAB
- both must typically choose between casting and fighting
- both use their full level as their caster level (unlike the Paladin)
However
- The bloodrager self-buffs with a level 2 or lower spell when entering a rage (starting at level 11)
Fortunately, the spell list for the Fox Kami includes some decent out-of-combat utility spells.
It seems like the Fox Kami isn't quite as effective at its job as it probably should be.
It's no trouble. It's good practice for me, since I've been trying to get into game design and, while I've learned a decent amount about programming, my classes haven't spent quite as much time on designing and balancing game mechanics.
As for the fox, I will make some comparisons to the Magus and possibly also to the Bloodrager from the ACG playtest, which are both the closest alternatives as spell-casting martial characters.
Blessed Friend:
You seem to be trading a combat-capable animal companion or the ability to enhance your weapon for a familiar. To be fair, you get it at level 1, instead of level 5, and alertness is nice. Still, you're a full-BAB character who can wear up to medium armor (and still cast spells) and will likely be in melee (unless you plan on primarily using a ranged weapon and/or spells). This means that your familiar is probably going to either be with you (and likely in harm's way) or will need to hang back.This is, of course, assuming that your DM doesn't just assume that your familiar is hidden somewhere safe on your person at all times, in which case most of the downsides pretty much go away. Overall, it seems like a reasonable trade to swap out an animal companion for a familiar.
I agree with you here, however I was slightly worried about the Champion taking improved familiar and using it as a wand-bot. It would take some investment however so I am going to live with it for now.
Kit's Birthright:
Useful for an arcane caster.
*Nod*
Adroit Casting and Occult Arms:
Both of these abilities make this choice viable. You wouldn't want to give up your armor to gain arcane spells, and as a full-BAB character, you want to be able to actually use your weapons, so not having to put them away or even keep a hand free to cast your spells (like the magus) is nice.
I agree these are serious quality of life improvements, however considering how much earlier they come on-line versus when even a good archetype such as Arcane duelist gets similar abilities I considered them substantial abilities.
Nine Tails:
More spells and a grater variety of spells is certainly nice, though it comes online at level 20, which is a bit late.
This is the Fox capstone and I had worried it was too strong, however you are not the only person who has informed me that it feels about right.
Overall:
It actually seems like it spreads itself a bit thin. A few issues1) Ability Scores:
You use INT for your spell-casting, but CHA for your class abilities. Plus, as a character also intended to engage in martial combat, you want decent CON and a solid STR and/or DEX score.
I agree with you completely on the MAD aspects of Fox and am worried about them, however as Fox is only slightly older than Eagle I am still gathering more data. I believe in the end it will come out to be a constraining factor on this type of Kami.
2) Fighting vs. Casting:
Like the Magus, you are intended to be able to cast spells and attack with your weapons. However, unlike the magus, you don't get anything like spell strike or spell combat that lets you cast a spell and attack in the same round. Given the Champion's other class abilities, you seem to be more effective at attacking than casting spells in combat as a Champion of the Kami. This is kind of a shame, since you have included some pretty good combat spells and buff spells. I suppose if you're out of range and can't charge at an enemy they might still see some use, though.
I had mostly visualized a Fox Champion using their magic as a deceptive or bolstering set of effects, resulting in either an ambush or allowing an enemy to defeat themselves.
I had deliberately not improved their action economy as the Magus does.
I was worried that their spell list was too powerful however.
In all honesty I saw them as a sort of arcane cleric like character, with a foreshortened spell-list in return for martial might, based around being smarter rather than stronger than an opponent.
Now, comparing the Champion to the Bloodrager
- both have full BAB
- both must typically choose between casting and fighting
- both use their full level as their caster level (unlike the Paladin)However
- The bloodrager self-buffs with a level 2 or lower spell when entering a rage (starting at level 11)Fortunately, the spell list for the Fox Kami includes some decent out-of-combat utility spells.
It seems like the Fox Kami isn't quite as effective at its job as it probably should be.
I find it interesting that you find it less effective than desired as I was worried and most of my prior feedback had reflected that perhaps the fox spell-list was too good.
However I will definitely take it into consideration and perhaps add something so that Fox is not so loaded all at level 1 and 20.
My thanks again for your feedback.
I would love to hear about anything else that catches your eye in the Champion.
Interesting.
Have you considered a base list of spells, with specific Kami granting additional spells to the list?
That was actually my first thought, however I have had Fox and Monkey in my head for awhile and their directions were very different so I decided to go with separate lists.
I will however revisit this and see if I can save word count now that you have brought it back to my attention.
My thanks again for your feedback.
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I've just taken a first look through. I have some concerns about the power level as well, though I need to look longer to be more certain about that.
In general I think the Boons are very strong. Whereas paladin mercies are circumstantial, in that they only matter if that specific condition is inflicted, Boons will always be useful. You can select Boons ahead of time that you know will be useful to the party. I think that makes them better already. And the effects you give are pretty powerful as well.
===
Some other points;
* For every four levels past levels past level one (6, 11, 16) a Champion bearing a Cat Kami may select another bonus feat.
* Soul's Claws: shouldn't this be presented before Cat's Dance, since it's a level 1 ability?
The ability is not symmetric; treat weapons as claws for feat purposes, but treat claws as weapons for feat, spell and ability purposes. Why the asymmetry?
If you may treat weapons as claws for feat purposes, can you use Improved Natural Weapon on manufactured weapons? That's very weird, and might create surprising loopholes/combos elsewhere.
* Cat's Fury: are these attacks in addition to the normal number of attacks?
* Turtle: compare the bonus feats to the ranger's shield style. Was it intended that you couldn't "skip ahead" like the ranger can? In fact, you have to wait very long before getting any bonus feats, while shield builds are actually very feat intensive.
* Grizzly's Domain: if a medium creature "occupies" the space of a large creature, which additional 3 squares does he occupy? This seems like an awkward ability.
* Silent Moment: I don't think "non-actions" are a thing. It should probably be a free action.
* Perfect Edge: it is customary that such abilities don't bypass DR/-
* Adroit Casting: should restrict this ability to the spellcasting you gain from this class only, rather than all other arcane classes you also happen to have
* Fox's Wiles: remember that this grants you access to the Arcane Strike feat.
* Unerring eye: "This bonus has a maximum of one plus one per two levels she possesses in the Champion of the Kami class. If she possesses a Dexterity modifier of at least one this bonus has a minimum of one." Isn't the second sentence redundant?
* Penetrating beak: does that mean your arrows go through a Wind Wall? Through a Wall of Force? Does it only apply to your own ranged attacks?
* Inspired: what about bloodline powers, arcane school powers and so forth? The wording should probably be made more flexible so that if another new class emerges, it automatically works as well.
* Spellcasting: should probably take a look at paladin spells that might have the [lawful] descriptor
Holy god. Grizzly gives a +10 enhancement bonus to strength. This is 4 over what most characters can get. That is sort of nuts, man.
Dex to ranged damage is crazy for reasons mentioned before too. Eagle might be the most broken thing here.
The Fox's spellcasting progression is wonky, but I don't think it is broken if only because it forces them to split their focus between charisma and intelligence. Fox is probably the weakest option for this reason and the reason that an animal familiar is generally much weaker than an animal companion.
Cat might be the best two weapon fighting build in the game (in that it can eventually dual wield at no penalty and dual wield without investing in dexterity).
Why is monkey the only spirit not to get anything at level 1? Maybe monkey is the weakest?
Every build seems more powerful than the standard paladin save for maybe fox and monkey (who seem oddly lackluster).
Everything else ranges from a little more powerful to way way more powerful.
Dot for later, maybe. I've got a lot to look at right now. O.O
It's less that I think fox is too strong and more that I think it isn't quite as effective an option as some of the other Kami.
That said, I agree that deceptive and bolstering effects are thematically appropriate.
I think the Monkey looks a bit sparse in comparison to the rest. Even though its 20th level ability is strong, it isn't enough in and of itself to make up for the fact that the other Kami get additional class features in between levels 1 and 20.
I think Cat is probably my favorite, both thematically and mechanically. I kind of agree with Ascalaphus about the symmetry thing, though. Most races don't have claws naturally, and the ones that do don't typically do too much damage with them by default (not without investing feats and such into them, anyway). So, I don't think treating claws as manufactured weapons would be too problematic from a balance standpoint.
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Warrior of the Holy Light doesn't give quite enough for paladin spellcasting, but I really doubt it's worth as much as you're giving it. The most recent paladin I've seen in play made good use of a few immediate-action spells but if you'd given her the option to trade spellcasting for the Bear Kami I expect it would be a no-brainer for the latter - even in a very high-wealth game where said paladin had +6 Str and Cha items and a Holy Avenger at level 13.
This expansion of reach and size stacks with any other reach or size expanding effects unless those effects specify otherwise.
Rephrase as "unless those effects specifically state they do not stack with Grizzly's Domain" or you'll have problems with the fact that most size-enhancing effects say they don't stack with other effects that increase size.
Holy god. Grizzly gives a +10 enhancement bonus to strength. This is 4 over what most characters can get. That is sort of nuts, man.
Agreed. That should cap at +6 at most, keeping in mind that's a 36,000gp value - or 54,000gp value if it's allowing a high-level champion to replace a Belt of Physical Might or Perfection (Str and Dex and/or Con) +6 with a Belt of Dex/Con +6. Alternatively consider granting smaller (+1-3) inherent bonuses, or a temporary effect (suggest a sacred bonus from +2 to +6 useable as a free action for a few rds/day).
This is not to say that I am against tweaking the code, and perhaps I need to make it more clear. For example a Champion would hate the use of say Dominate person, but sleep would most likely be fine as it would be functionally similar to knocking someone out, thereby using force to oppose them.
In that case, I would suggest re-wording "mind-warping magic or abilities" as "magic that possesses or exercises mental control over others" - that's the same wording as used in the Protection from [Alignment] spells so it should be clear enough for table use.
If you're worried about it causing table drama I'd reword it as "may not use or explicitly or implicitly support allies' use of" such magic. This means that a champion doesn't auto-fall for an ally's use of such magic but is required to for example vocally criticize the use of such magic and refuse to participate in any plans relying on the use of such. This still makes it hard to play a Champion with certain types of enchanters, but not impossible (and normal paladins have similar issues with undead-master necromancers).
I would also suggest "use of binding contracts / contracts with penalties" as an example of depriving others of free will.
I also think the wording "a Champion may not use force to dictate the choices of others, though she may use force to oppose them," is inappropriate. Using force to oppose choice A is essentially using force to dictate choice (not A). Instead I suggest the wording "a champion may not use force to dictate the choices of others, except where those choices would cause harm to or restrict the freedom of third parties." This is the classic "your freedom to wave your fists around ends where my nose begins" clause. So for example, who you want to have sex with is your business and I'm not allowed to interfere, unless your partner doesn't consent in which case you're infringing on their freedom of choice and I get to smite you.
First I would like to thank everyone for some quality feedback, it is very appreciated.
Second my apologies for the tardiness of my reply, I am in Japan, it is golden week and I am changing hotels today so it is a bit of a madhouse in Covent's world right now :-)
I've just taken a first look through. I have some concerns about the power level as well, though I need to look longer to be more certain about that.
In general I think the Boons are very strong. Whereas paladin mercies are circumstantial, in that they only matter if that specific condition is inflicted, Boons will always be useful. You can select Boons ahead of time that you know will be useful to the party. I think that makes them better already. And the effects you give are pretty powerful as well.
I agree with you on Boons being powerful, however I am not sure that boons are necessarily better than well picked mercies.
Losing the ability to ignore sleep due to washing away fatigue or to remove blindness/deafness/poison/disease are large sacrifices in my opinion.
Also the fact that quite a bit of a Champions ability to heal will be used to buff thereby "wasting" healing, are some of the reasons I made Boons what they are. In a non-monkey kami's case this is the only way a champion may heal as well.
I will be the first however to admit I need to run some more play-testing with each boon and see how useful they are especially in combination.
I have thought about having wash clean only grant one boon selected each time wash clean is used from among those a champion possesses. What do you think about this?
===Some other points;
* For every four levels past levels past level one (6, 11, 16) a Champion bearing a Cat Kami may select another bonus feat.
*Should be every five levels, fixed, good catch.
* Soul's Claws: shouldn't this be presented before Cat's Dance, since it's a level 1 ability?
The ability is not symmetric; treat weapons as claws for feat purposes, but treat claws as weapons for feat, spell and ability purposes. Why the asymmetry?
If you may treat weapons as claws for feat purposes, can you use Improved Natural Weapon on manufactured weapons? That's very weird, and might create surprising loopholes/combos elsewhere.
I have rearranged this and a few other abilities so they appear in level order.
I have also changed it so it is as you say symmetric, this is an artifact of multiple iterations of this ability and should have been this way from the beginning.
I am aware of the possibility of loopholes however, until I find a serious exploit I am ok with things like Improved natural weapons used on daggers and such.
* Cat's Fury: are these attacks in addition to the normal number of attacks?
Yes they are. I have added the word additional so as to hopefully make this more clear.
* Turtle: compare the bonus feats to the ranger's shield style. Was it intended that you couldn't "skip ahead" like the ranger can? In fact, you have to wait very long before getting any bonus feats, while shield builds are actually very feat intensive.
I did design it to not skip ahead however I am concerned that turtle is underpowered, I will do some more research and number crunching.
* Grizzly's Domain: if a medium creature "occupies" the space of a large creature, which additional 3 squares does he occupy? This seems like an awkward ability.
Huumm, I see your point, I will take another look at this.
* Silent Moment: I don't think "non-actions" are a thing. It should probably be a free action.
I took non-action from the CRB. I was trying to avoid the "You cannot take Free actions on not your turn" effect.
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
* Perfect Edge: it is customary that such abilities don't bypass DR/-
I originally had it written to exclude DR/- and DR/epic. I agree and have changed it back.
* Adroit Casting: should restrict this ability to the spellcasting you gain from this class only, rather than all other arcane classes you also happen to have
Added some verbiage to this and Occult Arms to limit it to Fox casting only.
* Fox's Wiles: remember that this grants you access to the Arcane Strike feat.
*Nod*
* Unerring eye: "This bonus has a maximum of one plus one per two levels she possesses in the Champion of the Kami class. If she possesses a Dexterity modifier of at least one this bonus has a minimum of one." Isn't the second sentence redundant?
*Wince* This is just bad editing on my part. I included a part of an old ability. Second sentence is gone, my thanks for the catch.
* Penetrating beak: does that mean your arrows go through a Wind Wall? Through a Wall of Force? Does it only apply to your own ranged attacks?
It was meant to defeat effects that were hard counters to archers such as wind wall and fickle winds. I have changed its wording to make it clearer and also to reflect that yes it is only for the champions ranged attacks.
It should not work on generic counters such as wall of force, however perhaps it could... Humm, I think eagle is strong enough already but something for the back-pocket.
* Inspired: what about bloodline powers, arcane school powers and so forth? The wording should probably be made more flexible so that if another new class emerges, it automatically works as well.
Changed the wording to be more generic, however I have made it specifically not recover spells.
* Spellcasting: should probably take a look at paladin spells that might have the [lawful] descriptor
I thought I had removed all of the [Lawful] spells and all of the [Compulsion] spells. If you see one please tell me and I will shuffle it out.
Holy god. Grizzly gives a +10 enhancement bonus to strength. This is 4 over what most characters can get. That is sort of nuts, man.
I honestly agree, my original Bear had only a +6 but I had a lot of feedback saying how weak that was.
I thought a free belt and a free amulet of natural armor was a nice set of abilities however I had over 10 people tell me it was weak.
I am thinking about taking it down to a +8, however I do not want to make it inherent and save the player a manual or another even less common bonus type and make it to strong via excessive stacking.
Dex to ranged damage is crazy for reasons mentioned before too. Eagle might be the most broken thing here.
I agree Eagle is very strong perhaps too much so. But it is limited and also caps out at only a +11 where normal stats cap at a +13.
I am leery of Dex to damage, however I will have to think to see if I can find something to replace it.
The Fox's spellcasting progression is wonky, but I don't think it is broken if only because it forces them to split their focus between charisma and intelligence. Fox is probably the weakest option for this reason and the reason that an animal familiar is generally much weaker than an animal companion.
I have had several people point out that the MADness of Fox affects them in a very negative way.
I wondered if Fox needs something but honestly I feel it is already rather strong, however I will look into it.
Cat might be the best two weapon fighting build in the game (in that it can eventually dual wield at no penalty and dual wield without investing in dexterity).
I agree their bonuses to TWF come online sooner that two weapon warrior but I am not sure that Cat is innately better.
Why is monkey the only spirit not to get anything at level 1? Maybe monkey is the weakest?
I had given Monkey back Paladin spell-casting but it seems several people in this iteration of the thread feel that is not enough.
Every build seems more powerful than the standard paladin save for maybe fox and monkey (who seem oddly lackluster). Everything else ranges from a little more powerful to way way more powerful.
Humm, I thought with the loss of mercies, spell-casting, channeling, Changes to smite, and the Aura changes that champion was close in parity to paladin.
If I understand correctly though you feel that Champion in-toto is too strong and needs an across the board power-down?
It's less that I think fox is too strong and more that I think it isn't quite as effective an option as some of the other Kami.
That said, I agree that deceptive and bolstering effects are thematically appropriate.
Humm, I will look into Fox.
I think the Monkey looks a bit sparse in comparison to the rest. Even though its 20th level ability is strong, it isn't enough in and of itself to make up for the fact that the other Kami get additional class features in between levels 1 and 20.
Ditto for Monkey.
I think Cat is probably my favorite, both thematically and mechanically. I kind of agree with Ascalaphus about the symmetry thing, though. Most races don't have claws naturally, and the ones that do don't typically do too much damage with them by default (not without investing feats and such into them, anyway). So, I don't think treating claws as manufactured weapons would be too problematic from a balance standpoint.
I have changed the ability for symmetry and also to limit it to light and one-handed weapons.
Warrior of the Holy Light doesn't give quite enough for paladin spellcasting, but I really doubt it's worth as much as you're giving it. The most recent paladin I've seen in play made good use of a few immediate-action spells but if you'd given her the option to trade spellcasting for the Bear Kami I expect it would be a no-brainer for the latter - even in a very high-wealth game where said paladin had +6 Str and Cha items and a Holy Avenger at level 13.
Humm, I have a paladin who hates the fact he gave up spell-casting due to loss of wands, scrolls, staves etc...
But you seem to be part of the majority.
I just find it interesting due to the fact that the last time I presented this class many people said I was not giving enough for spell-casting, especially in Cat and Turtle.
More Mechanics Stuff:
I like the style of the Cat Kami but it's similarly a bit OP. I would also suggest for thematic reasons restricting Soul's Claws to slashing or piercing light or one-handed weapons. It's a bit odd to treat a greatclub as "claws." Keep in mind also that this guarantees anyone with the Cat Kami will select Claw Pounce as a level 16 bonus feat (unless they're a catfolk and have it already).
I have changed souls claws to be only light and one handed weapons, I never intended it for two handers or ranged.
I agree claw pounce will be the most optimized bonus feat, however at level 16 eighth level spell are floating around and barbarians have been pouncing for a long tie so it did not seem to be too strong to me.
Grizzly's Domain wrote:
This expansion of reach and size stacks with any other reach or size expanding effects unless those effects specify otherwise.
Rephrase as "unless those effects specifically state they do not stack with Grizzly's Domain" or you'll have problems with the fact that most size-enhancing effects say they don't stack with other effects that increase size.
I am rethinking Grizzly's Domain, however I agree if I keep it I will most likely reword as you suggest.
Agreed. That should cap at +6 at most, keeping in mind that's a 36,000gp value - or 54,000gp value if it's allowing a high-level champion to replace a Belt of Physical Might or Perfection (Str and Dex and/or Con) +6 with a Belt of Dex/Con +6. Alternatively consider granting smaller (+1-3) inherent bonuses, or a temporary effect (suggest a sacred bonus from +2 to +6 useable as a free action for a few rds/day).
Holy god. Grizzly gives a +10 enhancement bonus to strength. This is 4 over what most characters can get. That is sort of nuts, man.
:-) I had originally set this as a +6 but had quite a bit of feedback that it was too "weak" or "boring".
Glad to see that I am not crazy.
Code Stuff:
This is not to say that I am against tweaking the code, and perhaps I need to make it more clear. For example a Champion would hate the use of say Dominate person, but sleep would most likely be fine as it would be functionally similar to knocking someone out, thereby using force to oppose them.In that case, I would suggest re-wording "mind-warping magic or abilities" as "magic that possesses or exercises mental control over others" - that's the same wording as used in the Protection from [Alignment] spells so it should be clear enough for table use.
If you're worried about it causing table drama I'd reword it as "may not use or explicitly or implicitly support allies' use of" such magic. This means that a champion doesn't auto-fall for an ally's use of such magic but is required to for example vocally criticize the use of such magic and refuse to participate in any plans relying on the use of such. This still makes it hard to play a Champion with certain types of enchanters, but not impossible (and normal paladins have similar issues with undead-master necromancers).
I would also suggest "use of binding contracts / contracts with penalties" as an example of depriving others of free will.
I also think the wording "a Champion may not use force to dictate the choices of others, though she may use force to oppose them," is inappropriate. Using force to oppose choice A is essentially using force to dictate choice (not A). Instead I suggest the wording "a champion may not use force to dictate the choices of others, except where those choices would cause harm to or restrict the freedom of third parties." This is the classic "your freedom to wave your fists around ends where my nose begins" clause. So for example, who you want to have sex with is your business and I'm not allowed to interfere, unless your partner doesn't consent in which case you're infringing on their freedom of choice and I get to smite you.
I will take this all into consideration and take a good hard look at the code.
After some feedback, I have made the changes acknowledged here and also changed Bear Kami. I am updating the file in Google docs now so everyone can see the changes. The original link should lead to the changed document
In the works:
Fox ideas
Monkey thoughts
Code considerations
I am deeply thankful for all of your effort and thoughts and would love some more feedback.
In a hurry, and dang it, do I have too much stuff to think about, but:
Weirdo, et. al. with the concerns on +10 STR, what about a +6 inherent bonus to STR, ala a socerer with the abyssal bloodline or something similar?
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Humm, I have a paladin who hates the fact he gave up spell-casting due to loss of wands, scrolls, staves etc...
Is he the only divine class in the party? If so I can see why he might find it difficult to not be able to activate a Wand of CLW or Lesser Restoration, or a Scroll of Restoration or Death Ward. But those things are frequently covered and covered better by a cleric or oracle (or even druid, witch, inquisitor, or alchemist) in which case most of the paladin's best spells are immediate actions that aren't effective with scrolls or wands (since casting time is increased).
I agree claw pounce will be the most optimized bonus feat, however at level 16 eighth level spell are floating around and barbarians have been pouncing for a long tie so it did not seem to be too strong to me.
Not necessarily, but you should always be aware of "must-have" options, and on top of that remember that the average Cat Kami champion will get more out of pounce than the average barbarian since most barbarians THF, most or all Cat Kami champions will TWF, and full attacks are more critical for TWF than THF.
Weirdo, et. al. with the concerns on +10 STR, what about a +6 inherent bonus to STR, ala a socerer with the abyssal bloodline or something similar?
Wow, I'd forgotten about that strength bonus. I'd be inclined to give the Bear Kami a smaller strength bonus than the abyssal bloodline because the sorcerer is not otherwise built as a "strength" class, but the champion is, so the champion will find the strength bonus more powerful/optimal than the sorcerer. Up to +4 sounds appropriate, though.
...First I would like to thank everyone for some quality feedback, it is very appreciated.
Second my apologies for the tardiness of my reply, I am in Japan, it is golden week and I am changing hotels today so it is a bit of a madhouse in Covent's world right now :-)
** spoiler omitted **
I just realize that I misunderstood something. I did not realize that casting was entirely gone from most builds. That is certainly something to keep in mind. I don't think mercies are that great, btw. It is a pretty situational power where as many of the boons of brotherhood are non-situational.
Some thoughts on your responses:
On bear: I think reeling bear back to a +8 final enhancement bonus might be a solid plan. I think tacticslion suggestion of an inherent bonus is really missing the point and I hope you understand that too.
For the two weapon fighter: a huge portion of my point is that they--like rangers--can pick up the twf tree without any kind of investment in dex. So they can build full plate, strength, and charisma while the TWF fighter can't. And while I agree that the fighter will ultimately be better at poking guys with two swords, you may not be entirely appreciating the doors the cat's other abilities open. Improved natural attack "claws" makes an orc's double-axe or a double sword deal 2d6 with each head. That means it is dual-wielding great swords time. Or if you are going to rule that these double weapons don't work then it is time to wield both a falcata and a kukri or some other such madness. Then you got all these heals and other treats. I don't really think you have a problem if you don't let the champion ignore entry qualifications. Forcing some MAD is a balance leaver that a man can pull.
On monkeys: I mostly dislike how inconsistent they are. That is far and away the worst build in the first 4 levels. Or am I missing something else? Everyone else gets something while the monkey gets nothing. People like to play in those levels too, man. A class should strive for balance at every level to one extent or another.
Yet again, my sincere thanks go out to everyone who has taken the time to offer feedback.
Humm, I have a paladin who hates the fact he gave up spell-casting due to loss of wands, scrolls, staves etc...Is he the only divine class in the party? If so I can see why he might find it difficult to not be able to activate a Wand of CLW or Lesser Restoration, or a Scroll of Restoration or Death Ward. But those things are frequently covered and covered better by a cleric or oracle (or even druid, witch, inquisitor, or alchemist) in which case most of the paladin's best spells are immediate actions that aren't effective with scrolls or wands (since casting time is increased).
Druid in the party, however he just misses it.
I agree claw pounce will be the most optimized bonus feat, however at level 16 eighth level spell are floating around and barbarians have been pouncing for a long tie so it did not seem to be too strong to me.Not necessarily, but you should always be aware of "must-have" options, and on top of that remember that the average Cat Kami champion will get more out of pounce than the average barbarian since most barbarians THF, most or all Cat Kami champions will TWF, and full attacks are more critical for TWF than THF.
I agree, but it seems ok to me so it is something I will keep in my notes and an eye on.
Weirdo, et. al. with the concerns on +10 STR, what about a +6 inherent bonus to STR, ala a socerer with the abyssal bloodline or something similar?Wow, I'd forgotten about that strength bonus. I'd be inclined to give the Bear Kami a smaller strength bonus than the abyssal bloodline because the sorcerer is not otherwise built as a "strength" class, but the champion is, so the champion will find the strength bonus more powerful/optimal than the sorcerer. Up to +4 sounds appropriate, though.
I cut the Bear down to a +8 but if I cut it any further then bear effectively is giving up spells for a total at 20 of a +4 strength belt, a +6 amulet of natural armor (Nice, as it is one greater than max), and the ability to redirect damage/effects to herself.
I personally would not find that equitable.
I also do not want to change the type because then I am either saving the Champion a lot more money via inherent bonuses, or using a non-standard bonus type so am allowing perhaps excessive stacking.
I just realize that I misunderstood something. I did not realize that casting was entirely gone from most builds. That is certainly something to keep in mind. I don't think mercies are that great, btw. It is a pretty situational power where as many of the boons of brotherhood are non-situational.
OK, as several people have brought up boons I will do some more playtesting.
What does everyone think of the ability to only add one of a Champion's boons to each use of wash clean, selected at the time wash clean is used from the Boons possessed of course?
Some thoughts on your responses:
On bear: I think reeling bear back to a +8 final enhancement bonus might be a solid plan. I think tacticslion suggestion of an inherent bonus is really missing the point and I hope you understand that too.
*nod* Thanks.
For the two weapon fighter: a huge portion of my point is that they--like rangers--can pick up the twf tree without any kind of investment in dex. So they can build full plate, strength, and charisma while the TWF fighter can't. And while I agree that the fighter will ultimately be better at poking guys with two swords, you may not be entirely appreciating the doors the cat's other abilities open. Improved natural attack "claws" makes an orc's double-axe or a double sword deal 2d6 with each head. That means it is dual-wielding great swords time. Or if you are going to rule that these double weapons don't work then it is time to wield both a falcata and a kukri or some other such madness. Then you got all these heals and other treats. I don't really think you have a problem if you don't let the champion ignore entry qualifications. Forcing some MAD is a balance leaver that a man can pull.
While I agree it is always dangerous to allow for the elimination of dependency on an attribute, a TWF fight needs Str, Dex, Con. A Cat champion needs Str, Chr, Con. Also a Cat Champion still needs Dex 15 for Double Slice, and Two weapon defense, along with Dex 17 for Two weapon Rend. I will keep an eye on it, but so far in play and theory it has not been disruptive.
Also I have changed Soul's claws to work only on Light and one-handed weapons, and Cat's Dance only works on light weapons.
This means a Cat champion that chooses to go one-hand/light TWF is not eliminating any TWF to hit penalties until level 11 where she only eliminates a -1 not a -2, which I think will offset any gains via Improved natural weapon (Claw).
I can see Kukri/Kukri being optimal, but *Shrug* there will always be optimal builds and I will check it some more as you and others have offered concerns on it.
On monkeys: I mostly dislike how inconsistent they are. That is far and away the worst build in the first 4 levels. Or am I missing something else? Everyone else gets something while the monkey gets nothing. People like to play in those levels too, man. A class should strive for balance at every level to one extent or another.
Monkey is the "Default" Champion and gets the closest to "Paladin" spell-casting and abilities.
While Monkey does not get any Monkey specific abilities prior to level 4, she still gets all of the basic champion abilities (Wash clean, Kami's Wrath, Kami's Embrace, Boon of Brotherhood).
I am hesitant to add more as I do not want money to be Paladin+.
I do appreciate all of the comments and promise I am considering all input.
On "str/dex/con" dependence:
Also remember that a normal fighter will want wisdom for will saves. Charisma either displaces or augments every save stat for a paladin. I think limiting cat's dance to light weapons fixes things quite nicely. The light=>one handed damage step up is nowhere near the one handed=>two handed step up. I was mostly worried because of possible double weapon or falcata exploits.
On monkeys:
Isn't that just saying that for the first three levels every single other animal spirit is just paladin+ and then--hopefully--paladin equal thereafter? Is this an acceptable outcome?
I think this is why someone earlier requested that you elaborate on "what replaces what".
On "str/dex/con" dependence:
Also remember that a normal fighter will want wisdom for will saves. Charisma either displaces or augments every save stat for a paladin. I think limiting cat's dance to light weapons fixes things quite nicely. The light=>one handed damage step up is nowhere near the one handed=>two handed step up. I was mostly worried because of possible double weapon or falcata exploits.
Good :-) glad we can reach a consensus.
On monkeys:
Isn't that just saying that for the first three levels every single other animal spirit is just paladin+ and then--hopefully--paladin equal thereafter? Is this an acceptable outcome?I think this is why someone earlier requested that you elaborate on "what replaces what".
I have found that in the first three levels the loss of the ability to use wands/scrolls especially CLW wands is noticeable, I understand why there may be some concern, however making everything come online at 4+ for every class feels slightly cumbersome to me.
The basis of most replacement is:
Spellcasting + Channeling = all other abilities gained pre 20
Paladin capstone = Kami capstone
Mercies = Boons
Aura's Shuffled.
Hope this makes things more clear and I am very much enjoying your commentary and interest. My thanks.
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Soul's Claws: I would recommend adding the restriction "This does not stack with any other ability that allows you to treat 'claws' as a different attack type."
Otherwise Feral Combat Training (Claw) would allow you to treat any light weapon as an unarmed strike. That opens up a lot of UAS-specific stuff like style feats or Vicious Stomp which are balanced on the idea that UAS is generally a weaker attack type than even a dagger (which threatens on a 19).
Druid in the party, however he just misses it.
Missing it doesn't mean it's powerful. I feel pinched whenever I have a character with fewer than 6 skill points/level. That doesn't mean I should be able to trade 2 skill points/level for a Kami set of abilities.
I also do not want to change the type because then I am either saving the Champion a lot more money via inherent bonuses, or using a non-standard bonus type so am allowing perhaps excessive stacking.
The downside is it makes the usefulness of the ability dependent on the availability of magic items in-game. I've played one game where the PCs could easily have two +6 stat items at level 11, and one where we had only one or two +2 stat items at that level. The bear kami is wildly more useful in the second than in the first because it's replacing an item worth your entire WBL instead of one worth maybe 10% of it. A smaller inherent bonus of about +4 has comparable worth to a +8 enhancement bonus and more consistent value across wealth spreads (even the high-wealth game I played wasn't rolling in inherent bonuses).
Isn't that just saying that for the first three levels every single other animal spirit is just paladin+ and then--hopefully--paladin equal thereafter? Is this an acceptable outcome?
I think this is why someone earlier requested that you elaborate on "what replaces what".
Agreed, this is a problem.
Adding abilities to level 1-3 also increases the attractiveness of the champion as a dip. The paladin is already pretty dip-able with full BAB, d10 HD, lots of proficiencies, a 1/day "Smite," Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, and Aura of Courage already make it a tempting dip, especially for bards, rogues and ninja who often have high Cha and could use extra combat punch.
The Cat Kami gets the most in early levels with (1) Soul's Claws and free Weapon Finesse or TWF without pre-requisites (3) reduced TWF penalties. But we also have:
- Steel Kami: (1) DR 1/nonmetal (2) bonus Weapon Focus/Quickdraw (3) not slowed by medium armour
- Fox: (1) familiar, cantrips
- Turtle Kami: (1) Tower Shield proficiency and bashing ability
EDIT: You're right that spell trigger activation does provide some benefit at levels 1-3, but I still think some of the Kami give a bit too much at early levels. Cat and Steel give several goodies at these levels, and Fox doesn't give up spell trigger activation but does give a familiar early on. Conversely, Bear doesn't give anything special until level 4. It might be appropriate to start Thick Pelt at level 2-3 if you're compensating for item activation.
Soul's Claws: I would recommend adding the restriction "This does not stack with any other ability that allows you to treat 'claws' as a different attack type."
Otherwise Feral Combat Training (Claw) would allow you to treat any light weapon as an unarmed strike. That opens up a lot of UAS-specific stuff like style feats or Vicious Stomp which are balanced on the idea that UAS is generally a weaker attack type than even a dagger (which threatens on a 19).
I have added the word manufactured as this ability was never meant to apply to UAS or other natural weapons except claws.
Druid in the party, however he just misses it.Missing it doesn't mean it's powerful. I feel pinched whenever I have a character with fewer than 6 skill points/level. That doesn't mean I should be able to trade 2 skill points/level for a Kami set of abilities.
I can see where you are going with this however I am firmly of the opinion that the ability to use spell trigger/completion items without UMD is both powerful and valuable.
I also do not want to change the type because then I am either saving the Champion a lot more money via inherent bonuses, or using a non-standard bonus type so am allowing perhaps excessive stacking.The downside is it makes the usefulness of the ability dependent on the availability of magic items in-game. I've played one game where the PCs could easily have two +6 stat items at level 11, and one where we had only one or two +2 stat items at that level. The bear kami is wildly more useful in the second than in the first because it's replacing an item worth your entire WBL instead of one worth maybe 10% of it. A smaller inherent bonus of about +4 has comparable worth to a +8 enhancement bonus and more consistent value across wealth spreads (even the high-wealth game I played wasn't rolling in inherent bonuses).
I can see what you are saying here but I if I changed the type would make the ability a +5 rather than a +4 as I am vehenematly against class abilities that can be replaced by items at the level where they are gained/maximized.
Isn't that just saying that for the first three levels every single other animal spirit is just paladin+ and then--hopefully--paladin equal thereafter? Is this an acceptable outcome?
I think this is why someone earlier requested that you elaborate on "what replaces what".
Agreed, this is a problem.
Adding abilities to level 1-3 also increases the attractiveness of the champion as a dip. The paladin is already pretty dip-able with full BAB, d10 HD, lots of proficiencies, a 1/day "Smite," Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, and Aura of Courage already make it a tempting dip, especially for bards, rogues and ninja who often have high Cha and could use extra combat punch.
The Cat Kami gets the most in early levels with (1) Soul's Claws and free Weapon Finesse or TWF without pre-requisites (3) reduced TWF penalties. But we also have:
Steel Kami: (1) DR 1/nonmetal (2) bonus Weapon Focus/Quickdraw (3) not slowed by medium armour
Fox: (1) familiar, cantrips
Turtle Kami: (1) Tower Shield proficiency and bashing ability
I can see your point here. Cat is definitely the most tempting dip.
Steel is good but most non-rogue characters would lose more than they gain.
I cannot really see anyone dipping Fox for cantrips and a non-scaling familiar.
Turtle is something which for a shield build may be as tempting as Cat.
However I feel that the code much as a paladins code does will honestly prevent people from wanting to dip Champion.
EDIT: You're right that spell trigger activation does provide some benefit at levels 1-3, but I still think some of the Kami give a bit too much at early levels. Cat and Steel give several goodies at these levels, and Fox doesn't give up spell trigger activation but does give a familiar early on. Conversely, Bear doesn't give anything special until level 4. It might be appropriate to start Thick Pelt at level 2-3 if you're compensating for item activation.
You may be right about thick pelt, I will look at that.
I can see your point about fox, however my thought on their familiar was that granting them a lesser ability "Familiar" earlier is about equivalent to taking away a greater ability they gain later "Kami's Hand".
Just to reiterate, I have changed several things due to the excellent feedback in this thread.
Most recently Bear's ability Cub Protector got shuffled to level 2.
The most recent document is in the link at the OP of this thread.
My thanks again go out to everyone, who has taken the time to post or critique.
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Looking pretty good. Continued nit-picking:
I have added the word manufactured as this ability was never meant to apply to UAS or other natural weapons except claws.
"At level one a Champion bearing a Cat Kami may choose to treat any light or one handed manufactured weapons she wields as claws for the purpose of qualifying for or using feats, as well as the targeting of spells and abilities."
The wording is better but doesn't close the FCT issue. It's not about treating UAS as claws, it's treating manufactured weapons as UAS. A champion using two kukri can treat those weapons as claws for the purposes of using Feral Combat Training (claw). Feral Combat Training allows her claws (kukri) to count as UAS for the purposes of, for example, Vicious Stomp.
I can see your point about fox, however my thought on their familiar was that granting them a lesser ability "Familiar" earlier is about equivalent to taking away a greater ability they gain later "Kami's Hand".
Rather than giving the Fox a weaker pet early, I would suggest giving them a stronger pet. Give them the Improved Familiar feat for free, and/or give an extra bonus to the familiar to make them comparable to the animal companion option. This might be a stat bonus (+2 Dex and Cha?), minor shapeshifting, resistance to others' divination, Tongues SLA, Improved Familiar for free, or some combination of these.
I cannot really see anyone dipping Fox for cantrips and a non-scaling familiar.
The thing about familiars is that many of their abilities (HD, HP, saves, skills) are derived from your character level rather than your effective wizard level. Also Boon Companion gives you +4 to your effective wizard level, which is enough to qualify for some cool Improved familiars like a Sprite or Small Elemental. No one will dip champion for that alone, but there are plenty of other reasons to dip and with the familiar it's simply a better dip than paladin (especially for the bard who can already activate wands etc).
Turtle is something which for a shield build may be as tempting as Cat.
Maybe. I expect more shield builds are coming from classes that don't gain as much from multiclassing paladin/champion as the bard, rogue, and ninja, but who knows. You could always shift up the bashing ability to level 3: "At 3rd level, the champion can make a shield bash attack using a tower shield. A tower shield can be / is wielded as a two-handed weapon, but is otherwise identical to bashing with a heavy shield." You can move the "treat a tower shield as a heavy shield for feats and effects" to level 1 with Turtle Shell.
Sorry for the delay, was spreadsheeting Cat.
Looking pretty good. Continued nit-picking:
I have added the word manufactured as this ability was never meant to apply to UAS or other natural weapons except claws."At level one a Champion bearing a Cat Kami may choose to treat any light or one handed manufactured weapons she wields as claws for the purpose of qualifying for or using feats, as well as the targeting of spells and abilities."
The wording is better but doesn't close the FCT issue. It's not about treating UAS as claws, it's treating manufactured weapons as UAS. A champion using two kukri can treat those weapons as claws for the purposes of using Feral Combat Training (claw). Feral Combat Training allows her claws (kukri) to count as UAS for the purposes of, for example, Vicious Stomp.
I have been looking into this and I have yet to see any particularly dangerous combos.
I will have a spreadsheet soon.
Currently my plan is to leave the ability as is, but it is now in my notes for the future playtests.
I can see your point about fox, however my thought on their familiar was that granting them a lesser ability "Familiar" earlier is about equivalent to taking away a greater ability they gain later "Kami's Hand".Rather than giving the Fox a weaker pet early, I would suggest giving them a stronger pet. Give them the Improved Familiar feat for free, and/or give an extra bonus to the familiar to make them comparable to the animal companion option. This might be a stat bonus (+2 Dex and Cha?), minor shapeshifting, resistance to others' divination, Tongues SLA, Improved Familiar for free, or some combination of these.
I personally enjoy the idea of a companion that has been with you from the beginning more than gaining one at a level past one.
I also understand it makes it a bonus for any dipping done, however with the way the rest of fox is written I believe it is OK.
I cannot really see anyone dipping Fox for cantrips and a non-scaling familiar.The thing about familiars is that many of their abilities (HD, HP, saves, skills) are derived from your character level rather than your effective wizard level. Also Boon Companion gives you +4 to your effective wizard level, which is enough to qualify for some cool Improved familiars like a Sprite or Small Elemental. No one will dip champion for that alone, but there are plenty of other reasons to dip and with the familiar it's simply a better dip than paladin (especially for the bard who can already activate wands etc).
Familiar abilities only scale off of the possessed character levels in a class that gains a familiar.
Also boon companion raises you companions effective level not your own and would not qualify you for something requiring a specific caster level.
For example a Fox Champion 1/Rogue 4 would still only be caster level 1, and so would not qualify for any of the improved familiars. She would however have a familiar with an effective level of 5.
I am of the opinion that it would become more of a Fox Champion with a few levels in rogue rather than a rogue with a dip in Fox.
Turtle is something which for a shield build may be as tempting as Cat.Maybe. I expect more shield builds are coming from classes that don't gain as much from multiclassing paladin/champion as the bard, rogue, and ninja, but who knows. You could always shift up the bashing ability to level 3: "At 3rd level, the champion can make a shield bash attack using a tower shield. A tower shield can be / is wielded as a two-handed weapon, but is otherwise identical to bashing with a heavy shield." You can move the "treat a tower shield as a heavy shield for feats and effects" to level 1 with Turtle Shell.
I very much want to leave that ability at level one to allow for a Turtle champion to start his career with his weapon of choice, rather than having to change from heavy shield to tower shield.
However if I were to change it I believe your suggestion has merit.
I do appreciate all the feedback.
Just FYI I am going to be creating a thread soon requesting people to playtest the champion and submit playtest reports.
I think the Bear's Might of the Ursine is fairly well-balanced for what it gives you. It eventually makes belts of strength (of the appropriate level) obsolete, but only after a point when you probably would have had one, anyway. I would recommend using the belt slot for something more interesting, but I'm sure most people would just use it to increase their CON bonus, which, if nothing else, would make the champion a more effective tank.
Good call on restricting Soul's Claws to light and one-handed weapons, not that I would particularly expect it to be used with two-handed weapons, given how much of an emphasis Cat puts on using 2 weapons.
I kind of want to make a Catfolk champion, as it seems like they would have excellent synergy.
I think the Bear's Might of the Ursine is fairly well-balanced for what it gives you. It eventually makes belts of strength (of the appropriate level) obsolete, but only after a point when you probably would have had one, anyway. I would recommend using the belt slot for something more interesting, but I'm sure most people would just use it to increase their CON bonus, which, if nothing else, would make the champion a more effective tank.
Good call on restricting Soul's Claws to light and one-handed weapons, not that I would particularly expect it to be used with two-handed weapons, given how much of an emphasis Cat puts on using 2 weapons.
I kind of want to make a Catfolk champion, as it seems like they would have excellent synergy.
If you would be so kind, and you do play that Catfolk Champion, I would love a playtest report.
I have started a playtest thread Here.
My apologies that this has been inaccessible, I had been considering some things.
The link at the top should work again, my thanks for all of the interest and patience.
Ah. Thank you, sir!
Ah. Thank you, sir!
No problem. :-)
I did make a subtle change that addresses some concerns. A Champion now may only use one of the Boon's of Brotherhood they possess when using Wash Clean, the exception to this is Butterfly which is addressed under the butterfly kami.
Edit: As always my thanks for all of the interest and feedback, and of course more is always appreciated. ;-)