So, I'm playing in a really casual game with some friends. I am the only player with any experience at all. The DM wants me to build something fun and thematic but viable in case the rest of the party fails at building things. Straight up cheese is discouraged, and as such I want to build a believable character. As such, I will be selecting weapons and things based on what suits the character, not was is strictly the best option.
As a bit of background (you can skip this if you want to get to the crunch), Undines in this setting are semi-aquatic nomadic sea people whose evolution was influenced over centuries by a whale and dolphin-lubbng marid from early humans living on the coast. Over the generations, they moved further and further out to sea, learning to hunt with the dolphins and whales they travel with. They are reclusive by nature, and as such are more or less unheard of by anyone that doesn't live underwater. They have been nearly wiped out by the sahuagin(sp?), and are now reduced to a few scattered tribes on the fringes of sea elf territory. The pod is lead by a huntmaster, who I imagine is a tactician(psionic) or some s+*!. My character was his son. Long story short, he inherited some psionic ability, but we separated from the pod during a sahuagin attack shortly after his father died and was then marooned by a storm(which he may or may not have caused, GM is being enigmatic), and finally rescued by human sailors. He was so traumatized by the whole thing(he was 10 at the time) that he has a block on his psionic abilities now and a pretty piss-poor fragmented memory of what all went down. The sailors helped him look for his people for a few years to no avail, decided to adopted him, gave him a silly human name because aquan names are hard to pronounce and tend to involve echolocation, and eventually took him shoreside. As he grew up, he got used to life on land and spent some time at a monastery(where he gained his first level in waterben- er, monk) in hopes that repairing his damaged chi would help him to figure out what the f&%& happened to his people.
So here we are. We are level one. I am a flowing monk. I carry a short spear because I can throw it and it makes sense underwater. I mostly attack with unarmed strikes though.
We rolled stats, and I got this after race adjustments.
STR 10
CON 14
DEX 17
INT 14
WIS 17
CHA 13
Racially, I traded water affinity for hydrated vitality, hydraulic push for amphibious (quingong will give me more use for hydraulic push eventually anyways), considering trading cold resist for something (maybe blindsense?)
Featwise, I am going with Weapon Finesse, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Improved Trip. I am taking both the Flowing and Quinggong archetypes for monk. Level 2, I plan to take another level of monk. 3 and 4 will be rogue, building to vicious stomp. Then what. Probably back to monk for the quingong stuff. Maybe a dip in fighter so I can start working on elemental fist stuff. I'm afraid I'm trying to do too many things.
My questions are, will this be viable at all? How am I going to pull of a rope dart? What is the fastest way to get Marid Style? Should I dip AGAIN into unarmed fighter, or just stick with monk and rogue? Should I also take maneuver master? Any archetypes for rogue worth a s&$$? Is hydraulic maneuver actually any good/worth a feat? What other maneuvers should I try to utilize? Disarm? Grapple?
These are the things I want eventually:
A rope dart, because rope darts are cool
Marid Style Feats
Hydraulic Maneuver
Rest of the party is:
Dwarf Paladin
Elf Monk(plain ole vanilla monk, so we should be pretty different)
Human Ranger
Samsaran Druid using 3.5 vow of peace s$+!
We are not optimized.
Sorry to double post, but do I need to meet the prerequisites to take feats granted by rogue talents?
There is no benefit from the Rogue levels.
Also, you are trying to spread yourself too thin, without benefit.
Mechanically, and thematically.
I suggest you look at the Watersinger Bard archetype.
If you prefer the Marid Style feats, then Master of Many Style Monk, with little Fighter dip could work.
You should absolutely, at all costs, not mix Monk and Rogue.
It will be a huge disappointment, and you will not have the viable PC you want. At best, you will be The Load, that everyone loves/hates. Like Scrappy-Doo.
The idea is that i'll be tripping and sneak attacking all the time. 2nd level flowing monk makes you flat footed with opportunity attacks, rogue talent gives me an opportunity attack when they fall prone, greater trip, when I have it gives me another. Just a fun little gimmick I wanted to try. Don't think it'll work?
EDIT: To explain, by the time I have greater trip, it should work like this:
1. Make trip attempt
2. Enemy falls prone
3. Opportunity attack, opponent has to make REF save
If he fails, he's flat-footed
4. Second opportunity attack is sneak attack.
5. He has to make another REF save
If he fails, he's still flat-footed
6. He dares to get up from prone
7. Another opportunity attack, still sneak attack
You don't need Rogue talents to do that, and with the low BAB, you will never get it off that way.
Sneak Attack is that ability, that has a neat name, but is unreliable, and hard to pull off.
Don't focus on names of archetypes/classes/abilities/feat to get the flavor you want.
You create the flavor.
See above for explanation of why I was gonna try it.
Alternatively:
1. Get attacked
2. Misdirection, free trip attempt
3. If he fails the save, he's sickened
4. Repeat steps 2-7 above, but on his turn
5. My turn happens
6. Flurry of blows w/ sneak attack
(Or flurry of maneuvers, I guess. Not sure which is the better choice.
You don't need a rogue talent to get 3 AoO's/round with tripping. All you have to do is take Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes, Vicious Stomp, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and Combat Expertise. Most are prerequisites, but Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp both give AoO's when you trip.
EvilPaladin wrote: You don't need a rogue talent to get 3 AoO's/round with tripping. All you have to do is take Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes, Vicious Stomp, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and Combat Expertise. Most are prerequisites, but Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp both give AoO's when you trip. Won't it take me way longer and have steeper prereqs without the free feat though? Maybe I'm wrong. I guess the whole idea was to abuse all of the free sneak attacks granted by the level 2 flowing monk feature. At the same time, all of those attacks can probably stand on their own without sneak attack.
The way I worked it out, with a 2 level investment in rogue, I could be vicious stomping for free sneak attacks by level 4.
Improved trip level one monk
Combat reflexes level 3 feat
Vicious Stomp with combat trick at level 4
Greater trip would have to wait until 7 though, I think.
So Weapon Focus Unarmed strike to offset the multiclassing at 5
Or would I be better of dropping rogue and dipping into unarmed fighter for elemental fist?
blackbloodtroll wrote: You should absolutely, at all costs, not mix Monk and Rogue.
It will be a huge disappointment, and you will not have the viable PC you want. At best, you will be The Load, that everyone loves/hates. Like Scrappy-Doo.
Well, I've made a Flowing Monk/Rogue and he wasn't the "load", unviable, or a disappointment in the slightest. Flowing Monk gives a Save-or-Flat foot with AoO's, and Trip abilities that let him generate AoO's, along with giving some solid survivability due to high saves and AC, and then Rogue grants sneak attack to give the monk a bit of damage on top of the normal attacks. Getting the trip attempt off is a little difficult unless you are [like me] lucky enough to fight mostly humanoids, but still, if you can that helps with attack rolls. Saying that Monk/Rogue multiclass is certainly going to make you the load is not correct. In fact, Monk/Rogue can be a surprisingly effective multiclass. Halfrican wrote: Won't it take me way longer and have steeper prereqs without the free feat though? Maybe I'm wrong. I guess the whole idea was to abuse all of the free sneak attacks granted by the level 2 flowing monk feature. At the same time, all of those attacks can probably stand on their own without sneak attack. No rogue talent gives you any of those for free, except for 1 that grants a combat feat and 1 that grants Improved Unarmed Strike. Monk Bonus Feats will give you IUS, Imp. Trip, and Combat Reflexes. Rogue will help you get 1 of them quicker, so if you want to get Sneak Attack, dropping a few levels of rogue might be nice, but fighter will be faster at progressing it. You will wait another 1 level to get the additional Vicious Stomp without rogue levels, but you still will probably get 1 AoO when the enemy feels like standing up. So while it can be nice, it isn't necessary.
Sneak Attack is just not worth it.
You can get other things to add to damage, that don't require a complicated set-up, and are more reliable.
EvilPaladin wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote: You should absolutely, at all costs, not mix Monk and Rogue.
It will be a huge disappointment, and you will not have the viable PC you want. At best, you will be The Load, that everyone loves/hates. Like Scrappy-Doo.
Well, I've made a Flowing Monk/Rogue and he wasn't the "load", unviable, or a disappointment in the slightest. Flowing Monk gives a Save-or-Flat foot with AoO's, and Trip abilities that let him generate AoO's, along with giving some solid survivability due to high saves and AC, and then Rogue grants sneak attack to give the monk a bit of damage on top of the normal attacks. Getting the trip attempt off is a little difficult unless you are [like me] lucky enough to fight mostly humanoids, but still, if you can that helps with attack rolls. Saying that Monk/Rogue multiclass is certainly going to make you the load is not correct. In fact, Monk/Rogue can be a surprisingly effective multiclass.Halfrican wrote: Won't it take me way longer and have steeper prereqs without the free feat though? Maybe I'm wrong. I guess the whole idea was to abuse all of the free sneak attacks granted by the level 2 flowing monk feature. At the same time, all of those attacks can probably stand on their own without sneak attack. No rogue talent gives you any of those for free, except for 1 that grants a combat feat and 1 that grants Improved Unarmed Strike. Monk Bonus Feats will give you IUS, Imp. Trip, and Combat Reflexes. Rogue will help you get 1 of them quicker, so if you want to get Sneak Attack, dropping a few levels of rogue might be nice, but fighter will be faster at progressing it. You will wait another 1 level to get the additional Vicious Stomp without rogue levels, but you still will probably get 1 AoO when the enemy feels like standing up. So while it can be nice, it isn't necessary. I more meant that combat trick as the level 2 rogue talent lets me get vicious stomp one level sooner that I could have otherwise, as I'd be getting a feat at a level I wouldn't be otherwise. But if you've tried it and it was underwhelming, that's solid advice. I was worried about non-humanoids as well.
EDIT: I'm dumb, that's exactly what you said.
Halfrican wrote: But if you've tried it and it was underwhelming It wasn't underwhelming, I just figured I ought to instead spend Rogue Talents on stuff like Offensive Defense, as it would only speed up progression by 1 level.
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