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I have a question about Style Feats.
Several of the Style Feats are written in this way:
Crane Style (Combat, Style)
Benefit: You take only a –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class.
Where part of the benefit "You take only a -2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively," occurs before "While using this style..."
I am having difficulty knowing whether these types of benefits are usable all the time even when I'm not using OOO style. I know that it explicitly states Style feats cannot be used out-of-combat, and feats higher up in the feat path cannot be used at all while not in the style, but this doesn't exclude the basic OOO Style feat being used when you're not in a particular stance?
So, what does it mean to be "using that style" or "in that stance"? Can I use any part of the baisc OOO Style feat without being in the stance? Or must I enter a stance (with its action requirement), whenever I choose to use any part of the basic OOO Style feats?
As seen HERE,
it says, "As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style. You can use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style. For example, if you have feats associated with Mantis Style and Tiger Style, you can use a swift action to adopt Tiger Style at the start of one turn, and then can use other feats that have Tiger Style as a prerequisite. By using another swift action at the start of your next turn, you could adopt Mantis Style and use other feats that have Mantis Style as a prerequisite."
As seen HERE,
it says, "As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style. You can use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style. For example, if you have feats associated with Mantis Style and Tiger Style, you can use a swift action to adopt Tiger Style at the start of one turn, and then can use other feats that have Tiger Style as a prerequisite. By using another swift action at the start of your next turn, you could adopt Mantis Style and use other feats that have Mantis Style as a prerequisite."
And, from having read that part of the rules, the description of the Crane Style feat, and the rules on feats in general, these were my conclusions on the Crane Style feats (and others like it):
1) To enter a stance or switch a stance, requires a swift action normally
2) You can only use feats with a style feat as prerequisite only in while in the stance of the associated style
3) The basic feats of a particular style, e.g. Crane Style, Tiger Style, Board Style, etc. are not limited by 2) because they don't have style feats as prerequisites
4) The +1 additional dodge AC of the Crane Style feat is explicitly stated to be usable while using the style, while the -2 reduction of the fighting defensively penalty is not explicitly stated to require the style.
To restate my final query again: do the rules mean that using ANY style feats of a particular style require you to be in the associated stance, or, in the case of several of the basic OOO Style feat, it is possible to use part of its benefits without needing to be in the associated stance?
Putting it into the context of the existing rules, do the rules mean:
Crane Style (Combat, Style)Your unarmed fighting techniques blend poise with graceful defense.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +2 or monk level 1st.
Benefit: You take only a –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. You also gain the ability to employ the Crane Style stance. While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class.
or
As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style. You can use a feat of a particular style only while in the stance of the associated style. For example, if you have feats associated with Mantis Style and Tiger Style, you can use a swift action to adopt Tiger Style at the start of one turn, and then can use other feats that have Tiger Style as a prerequisite. By using another swift action at the start of your next turn, you could adopt Mantis Style and use other feats that have Mantis Style as a prerequisite.
Or another possibility entirely that I didn't think of?
1) To enter a stance or switch a stance, requires a swift action normally
2) You can only use feats with a style feat as prerequisite only in while in the stance of the associated style
3) The basic feats of a particular style, e.g. Crane Style, Tiger Style, Board Style, etc. are not limited by 2) because they don't have style feats as prerequisites
4) The +1 additional dodge AC of the Crane Style feat is explicitly stated to be usable while using the style, while the -2 reduction of the fighting defensively penalty is not explicitly stated to require the style.To restate my final query again: do the rules mean that using ANY style feats of a particular style require you to be in the associated stance, or, in the case of several of the basic OOO Style feat, it is possible to use part of its benefits without needing to be in the associated stance?
Hmmm, while I don't claim to be an "expert", so take my reasoning as someone who looks at the rules and is "pretty sure" it means the following.
1) Yes, swift action to enter stance, and can only be done in combat.
2) You know, I never thought of it that way. If you read it carefully, you might be right. So, you would get the basic benefits of base feat without having to be in the stance. Seems, goofy, but that does look like the language. Hence, in that reading, you could have multiple initial style feats, and get the benefit from all of them. Wow, that seems, odd, but you can't access the higher level style feats without the stance. I wonder, if you are in the stance, do you lose the benefits of the other first level style feats? Hmmm.
3) Seems that is correct.
4) Yeah, I would probably rule that the +1 dodge AC bonus would require you to be in the stance, while out of stance you can still maintain the -2 penalty for fighting defensively.
What an interesting find. I'm glad you posted this question.
I'd be interested in what an expert on fighting styles would say, but I have to agree with you when I carefully looked at the wording.
for crane style specifically, i know this to be true. the reduction to -2 penalty for fighting defensively does not require you to be in "crane style" stance. but if you want the +1 to AC while doing so, you DO have to be in the stance. the other two feats in the crane chain (at least before the errata) made it clear that to grain their benefits, you had to both be fighting defensively AND using the stance.