The Ultimate Campaign rules for Exploration Edicts say:
If you are not traveling with the explorers and they have a hostile encounter, you may have the expedition attempt a Stealth check (DC 10 + twice the encounter’s CR), using the worst Stealth modifier among the expedition members.
But how are you supposed to know what the Stealth modifier of the expedition is? There's nothing about choosing members, or what type of stat blocks to use, or anything else like that.
Even if this is an old threat I want to push it, as exactly the same question came up im my Kingmaker game today?
Is there an errate or some other answer to it?
If your "expedition" is not fully statted (race, class, ability scores, and skills should be enough) for every member of the "expedition", then the GM can just pick one guy, the guy he thinks is the least stealthy. That's entirely up to the GM.
Once he's picked the guy, he imagines a quick partial stat block.
Maybe the "expedition" has a chubby cook. The GM assumes 2 levels of commoner and a DEX of 9. The cook probably never bothered putting ranks into Stealth so his total Stealth score would be -1.
Or maybe the "expedition" is more competent, and the least stealthy guy is a squire with a promising future as a knight. 1 level of commoner an done level of expert. Stealth is a class skill and he put one rank into it so he doesn't spook the horses, but his DEX is just an ordinary 10, so his Stealth skill is a +4.
This is entirely up to the GM - imagine who in the "expedition" is the least stealthy and why, then imagine a partial stat block, just enough to calculate his Stealth. The GM is encouraged to write it down in his notes in case it comes up again.
This is a skill that GMs need to develop. No, not the skill of picking the least Stealth guy in an "expedition", but rather, the skill of making things up on the spot while still having the made up stuff make sense in the context at the time, then being consistent with it next time the same context arises.
Thanks for the answer, even if this is a little disappointing. :(
Hoped to find some guidelines for it, because I don't like "up to the DM"-Rules, especially if the players have to invest something and also could get drawback from it. :(
Does anyon had some Houseruling for it, to make it more... streamlined?^^
Well, uh, if this is NOT an "up to the DM"; kind of thing, then nothing ever is. GMs make EVERYTHING up. They make up encounters, decide what monsters, what treasure, what traps, what environment, what weather, what reasons the monsters have for being there, what clues the PCs find to lead them to the monsters, etc.
GMs make EVERYTHING up.
This is no exception.
So, what is an expedition?
A group of people on a mission to explore an area, right?
Let's pretend for a moment that the Ultimate Campaign book was never written and all these Kingdom Building rules never existed and all - if that were the case, how would this situation have been handled in the olde days?
Players: OK, we want to explore the northern region of our kingdom.
GM: OK, are you going to just go up there yourself? If so, I'll whip up some encounters this week and make a fun exploration trip for you. Uh, but, your kingdom is really new, and without your leadership here, bad things might happen...
Players: No, we'll send an expedition! They can explore the region while we stay here and tend to the kingdom.
GM: OK, that works. Who do you send?
Players: I guess we need to hire some people. NPCs. Maybe ONE of us will go to lead the expedition, or maybe my Cohort might go. I guess it depends on who we find. We'll start by putting up fliers and having the town criers announce that we're forming the expedition.
GM: Fine. After a few days, you have about a hundred people milling around your castle. Your steward informs you that they're all here for the expedition.
Players: A hundred people! No way, we only need about 10 or 12. A surveyor, cartographer, a couple hunters, a few men at arms, a healer if they need it, maybe a couple hirelings to cook and tend horses and such.
GM: Well, you got a hundred. Either send them all or figure out who to send exploring and who to send home.
Players: All right, well, I guess we have to interview. Sheeesh, this running a kingdom thing can be tedious...
(time goes by - the GM can either make up 100 stat blocks or he can pass the time much more quickly by simply telling the players who they found and making stat blocks for just those good ones).
GM: OK, there you go, you have your expedition. A 4th level expert cartographer, a 3rd level ranger who will do the surveying, a 3rd level fighter and a 2nd level ranger who will be your hunters, a 3rd level cleric, three 1st level warriors and a 3rd level fighter captain to be your men at arms, and 3 1st level commoners to see to their needs. 12 guys. Their fee will be XXX gp per week.
Players: I guess that works. I'll send my cohort to lead them so I can stay here.
GM: Great. I'll spend some time this week rolling up stats for these guys and let you sort-of play them on their expedition. Should be fun. I'll have this stuff ready when we meet next week.
And after all that, the expedition is on its way. The GM has 12 stat blocks for the 12 people in the expedition as well as the stats for the cohort leading them. If the GM decides to have an encounter, the conversation might go like this:
GM: Your scout reports that there is a fort full of ogres up ahead.
Players: How many?
GM: The scout saw 4 ogres but reports the fort is much bigger than that and could hold dozens of ogres.
Players: Dozens! They'd kill this expedition. My cohort leads the expedition around the encounter.
GM: OK, roll stealth for your cohort, I'll make 12 Stealth checks over here.
(the GM rolls 12 times, consulting his 12 stat blocks, to see if they successfully sneak past the fort).
You see what I'm getting at?
Without the Ultimate Campaign rules, the GM would be generating lots of stat blocks, calculating tons of skills and attack mods, save mods, initiative mods, hit points, equipment lists, etc. Maybe he could use other book resources for common guys like this to save him all that work, but even then, he's making decisions about who the NPCs are and how competent they are and what classes they are, etc.
It would all be up to the GM. All of it.
With the Ultimate Campaign rules, it's still up to the GM, but all he needs to do is think for a few seconds about the worst NPC in the group and then make one roll. That's all I did for the chubby cook and the aspiring squire - that took more time to type it than it did to imagine it, which is to say, no real time at all.
So very, very, very much easier!
This is what GMs do. Make stuff up. Decide who will be there and what stats they will have.
There are no tables and no rules for it because different groups will do different things. The players in this example were fine with that selection, but players in a different kingdom full of high CR dragons might want a stronger group where everyone is an expert in skills like Stealth, and their weakest NPC might have a +15 modifier in Stealth.
Since each group could be different, the GM MUST be the one who decides this stuff.
If that's too tedious, then grab the NPC Codex and use likely NPCs in there to save time. There are other similar books out there that do the same thing.
But however you do it, sooner or later, GMs have to make these kinds of decisions. There are no quick and easy tables for it.
As a final suggestion, in an expedition of any size, there is guaranteed to be somebody with a ZERO Stealth modifier, so just assume that and simplify the thought process.
I know that DM make up a lot, I DM not for ~ 20 years :)
But it's always nice to have some guideline, to keep things balanced.
The UC gave me some DCs for the exploration edicts, if they now say "but the skills of the exploration team is up to you" the DCs make no sense at all, as the difficulty is always relative to the skills.
DC 20 is hard for a level 1 explorer, but for a level 9 it's no danger.
That's why I think that some guidelines regarding the explorers, especially in a game like PF, which is relativly clear regarding rolls etc., would be helpfull.
Otherwise I wouldn't need any BP costs, DC etc.... I could simply make things up...