Do these two feats feed off of each other? Can I trip a foe and tag him twice as he hits the ground?
This was answered in the FAQ.
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Yay, more trip questions! :P
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Well, despite the answers given in the FAQ, many of us find the answer unsatisfactory, so...
My position is that Vicious Stomp is unnecessary as Greater Trip should be doing what it does. I believe the wording of Greater Trip supports my position. I am fully aware folks don't see it that way and that is ok; until the language is changed to remove doubt or ambiguity, you will get table variation here.
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Well, despite the answers given in the FAQ, many of us find the answer unsatisfactory, so...
My position is that Vicious Stomp is unnecessary as Greater Trip should be doing what it does. I believe the wording of Greater Trip supports my position. I am fully aware folks don't see it that way and that is ok; until the language is changed to remove doubt or ambiguity, you will get table variation here.
Those who think that greater trip triggers from the target having the prone condition might see unnecessary redundancy. Others who think that greater trip triggers when the target is actually tripped, the success of the combat maneuver, see no ambiguity.
The latter coincides with what the FAQ says.
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What is unsatisfactory? You get one AO on the way down and a second at +4 when the target is prone? You would prefer less attacks?See my edit above :)
nope, I still do not understand why you think it is unsatisfactory? The feats are a shade redundant, but complementary. One lets me kick you when your down regardless of how you fell down, the other one lets me take you down and give all my friends a chance to kick you.
Tripping is a great way to neutralize biped reasonably sized melee combatants, and there are some good feats to make it even more powerful. But hyper focusing on trip to the exclusion of other techniques is a really limiting way to build a character.
If I were building a party to maximize this synergy, I would likely have a tripper with greater trip, and a monk who took vicious stomp, and combat reflexes. For the tripper it would be almost to many feats to chase the unarmed strike and a tripping build (which favours reach weapons.) So that where ever the monk goes the tripper follows, and the monk gets to curb stomp his foes when the tripper brings them down.
Yay, more trip questions! :P
Why do I feel like I'm overdosing on something like donuts. *burp*
Yay, more trip questions! :PWhy do I feel like I'm overdosing on something like donuts. *burp*
At least this one has a (apparently) clear and unambiguous answer. ;)
Well, despite the answers given in the FAQ, many of us find the answer unsatisfactory, so...
My position is that Vicious Stomp is unnecessary as Greater Trip should be doing what it does. I believe the wording of Greater Trip supports my position. I am fully aware folks don't see it that way and that is ok; until the language is changed to remove doubt or ambiguity, you will get table variation here.
Those who think that greater trip triggers from the target having the prone condition might see unnecessary redundancy. Others who think that greater trip triggers when the target is actually tripped, the success of the combat maneuver, see no ambiguity.
The latter coincides with what the FAQ says.
I completely disagree with how you see Greater Trip firing and I see no ambiguity. My interpretation fits just fine with Vicious Stomp as well as the FAQ. <shrug>
At least this one has a (apparently) clear and unambiguous answer. ;)Yay, more trip questions! :PWhy do I feel like I'm overdosing on something like donuts. *burp*
Wait for it. Someone will come along and muddy the waters eventually. Although I will admit with the FAQ in our faces, that does help...
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I completely disagree with how you see Greater Trip firing and I see no ambiguity. My interpretation fits just fine with Vicious Stomp as well as the FAQ. <shrug>Well, despite the answers given in the FAQ, many of us find the answer unsatisfactory, so...
My position is that Vicious Stomp is unnecessary as Greater Trip should be doing what it does. I believe the wording of Greater Trip supports my position. I am fully aware folks don't see it that way and that is ok; until the language is changed to remove doubt or ambiguity, you will get table variation here.
Those who think that greater trip triggers from the target having the prone condition might see unnecessary redundancy. Others who think that greater trip triggers when the target is actually tripped, the success of the combat maneuver, see no ambiguity.
The latter coincides with what the FAQ says.
Whatever. You're trying to convince me the sky is yellow despite the evidence pointing to the contrary.
Whatever. You're trying to convince me the sky is yellow despite the evidence pointing to the contrary.I completely disagree with how you see Greater Trip firing and I see no ambiguity. My interpretation fits just fine with Vicious Stomp as well as the FAQ. <shrug>Well, despite the answers given in the FAQ, many of us find the answer unsatisfactory, so...
My position is that Vicious Stomp is unnecessary as Greater Trip should be doing what it does. I believe the wording of Greater Trip supports my position. I am fully aware folks don't see it that way and that is ok; until the language is changed to remove doubt or ambiguity, you will get table variation here.
Those who think that greater trip triggers from the target having the prone condition might see unnecessary redundancy. Others who think that greater trip triggers when the target is actually tripped, the success of the combat maneuver, see no ambiguity.
The latter coincides with what the FAQ says.
Compare triggers.
Opponent falls prone adjacent to you.
You successfully trip an opponent.
Are these the same trigger? No.
Can one of these triggers occur while the other does not? Yes.
What happens when you trip a guy 10' away? Greater Trip triggers. Vicious Stomp does not trigger.
What happens when an opponent falls unconscious right next to you? Vicious Stomp triggers. Greater Trip does not trigger.
They are not the same trigger.
You don't need to misrepresent people who disagree with you on an entirely different matter simply because you don't understand their position.
Whatever. You're trying to convince me the sky is yellow despite the evidence pointing to the contrary.
"Despite the evidence pointing to the contrary?" What evidence? The only evidence I've seen you put forth is a flawed interpretation of the rules. You talk elsewhere about how tripping someone makes them stumble or off balance when the CRB clearly defines a trip as something else.
The problem is not my comprehension. I'm not telling you the sky is yellow. I'm telling you the Sun is yellow. Then you look at the blue sky and say 'Nope'. Similarly I'm not talking about a "Trip Attack". I'm talking about the action "to Trip". A Trip Attack is the roll you make to determine whether you beat the CMD or not. "to Trip" means you have beaten the CMD and the target has now been knocked prone. Two different things.
I'd say Remy has the right of it. Two separate, yet similar triggers, that CAN fire together or separately. You do not force the enemy to provoke because you roll a Trip Attack. Your attack must beat the CMD so that you can trip him. Once he has been successfully tripped, he provokes. And as mentioned above, to successfully trip someone, to beat the CMD of the target, and the general reason why people choose to perform a Trip Attack in the first place is to:
Knock the target prone.
So if you have evidence that tripping someone means something else, please provide it. And not what a dictionary will say. We're talking RAW and are sticking only with what the game rules give us. Otherwise, you need not make the claim that my view is to the contrary of what the book says. My view is perfectly in line with what the book says. No fillers or exceptions or inferred interpretations needed. And I have the added bonus of not having to parse or twist any words. :)
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The thing that irks me the most about how the devs have ruled on greater trip is that the whole point of the trip maneuver is to attack your opponent from a position of advantage. Barring iterative attacks, you will not get to take advantage of the situation as on the opponents turn he gets to stand up without suffering from the disadvantage. Sure you get an AOO, but not with the -4 to the opponents AC. No, the only thing the opponent gets is lost actions, so they basically get to stand up for free... Significant as losing actions may be, it is a big screw you to those who invested several feats to attain such combat mastery and totally flies in the face of any semblance of reality.
The thing that irks me the most about how the devs have ruled on greater trip is that the whole point of the trip maneuver is to attack your opponent from a position of advantage. Barring iterative attacks, you will not get to take advantage of the situation as on the opponents turn he gets to stand up without suffering from the disadvantage. Sure you get an AOO, but not with the -4 to the opponents AC. No, the only thing the opponent gets is lost actions, so they basically get to stand up for free... Significant as losing actions may be, it is a big screw you to those who invested several feats to attain such combat mastery and totally flies in the face of any semblance of reality.
The opponent is prone for both of these AoOs.
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The thing that irks me the most about how the devs have ruled on greater trip is that the whole point of the trip maneuver is to attack your opponent from a position of advantage. Barring iterative attacks, you will not get to take advantage of the situation as on the opponents turn he gets to stand up without suffering from the disadvantage. Sure you get an AOO, but not with the -4 to the opponents AC. No, the only thing the opponent gets is lost actions, so they basically get to stand up for free... Significant as losing actions may be, it is a big screw you to those who invested several feats to attain such combat mastery and totally flies in the face of any semblance of reality.The opponent is prone for both of these AoOs.
The second perhaps, but not for the first. And a smart player/opponent will go total defense before standing to negate the advantage, which basically translates the situation into lost action only, no real disadvantage, which is BS.
The opponent is prone for both of these AoOs.The second perhaps, but not for the first.
*DING* Congratulations! You two have just explained why there are a plethora of Trip threads running. :P
And a smart player/opponent will go total defense before standing to negate the advantage, which basically translates the situation into lost action only, no real disadvantage, which is BS.
*unrelated side note incoming*
to be fair, this is a wonderful tactic to use on powerful foes. I'll gladly give up my action every turn if the BBEG wastes his turn standing up. Heck, I'll call that a net gain (especially if I get an AOO on it as well). It's really a great use of action economy. Unless, it a mook in a sea of mooks, but if that's the case, why not just kill them?
You know what I just realised? Vicious Stop becomes available to a rediculous amount of weapons with Martal Versatility.
How to take advantage of this....
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The thing that irks me the most about how the devs have ruled on greater trip is that the whole point of the trip maneuver is to attack your opponent from a position of advantage. Barring iterative attacks, you will not get to take advantage of the situation as on the opponents turn he gets to stand up without suffering from the disadvantage. Sure you get an AOO, but not with the -4 to the opponents AC. No, the only thing the opponent gets is lost actions, so they basically get to stand up for free... Significant as losing actions may be, it is a big screw you to those who invested several feats to attain such combat mastery and totally flies in the face of any semblance of reality.
The tripper shouldn't necessarily be the one focused on doing damage, if he trips a foe, it gives his allies a chance to run up and curb stomp the foe while he is down, and a round later if the foe choses to give up his attack to stand up, he is subject to AO's from all your threatening allies, not just you. The AO from greater trip is just icing on a pretty compelling cake.