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So I was recently working on trying to make a Slayer build from the Advanced Class Guide, and I came across something interesting while doing research on cross-class options. From the Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack entry, it has the following description:
At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack's extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on).
Herein lies my question. In this entry, it states that if the Vivisectionist receives Sneak Attack from another class, then that class's levels stack with the Vivisectionist's to determine the effective Rogue level for the Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack. For people who don't have the Advanced Class Guide, this rule seems faulty with the Slayer, as Slayers gain 1d6 Sneak Attack damage every third level instead of the standard odd-level scaling that Rogues get. However, these levels still grant a Sneak Attack bonus, and as per the Vivisectionist rules, these Slayer Levels would instead grant Sneak Attack bonus damage based on Rogue level progression.
I know that the Advanced Class Guide has some faulty rules still, so I wouldn't be surprised if something like this slipped through. I'm curious to know if I'm interpreting these rules correctly, because if so, a level 1 dip in Vivisectionist greatly increases the Slayer's power level. However, I'm assuming that the RAI for a Slayer was actually meant to be something along the following:
"If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective Slayer level for the sneak attack's extra damage dice (so a Slayer 3/Vivisectionist 3 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 6th-level Slayer, a Slayer 3/Vivisectionist 6 has a +3d6 sneak attack like a 9th-level rogue, and so on)."
What do you guys think in regard to this? If this has already been errata'd, I'd greatly appreciate it if someone could point me in the direction of the ruling.
How many levels of rogue do you have ? How many dice of sneak attack does that get you ?
How many levels of slayer do you have ? How many dice of sneak attack does that get you ?
Add the dice of sneak attack together.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Add the dice of sneak attack together.
Can't do that, since Sneak Attack stacks based on level (see the Viv waiver.) But it is complicated by the Slayer using a slower progression.
I'd probably go with the lowest Sneak Attack value (add Slayer levels to Viv for SA and Viv dice to Slayer and see which has the least number of SA dice.) This is even more complicated if there is a difference.
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I'd probably go with the lowest Sneak Attack value (add Slayer levels to Viv for SA and Viv dice to Slayer and see which has the least number of SA dice.) This is even more complicated if there is a difference.
Yeah, there's definitely a difference. In the case of the Viv rules taking precedence, where you add Slayer levels to the Viv and compare it to a Rogue, it would look something like this:
CL3: 2d6
CL5: 3d6
CL7: 4d6
etc.
Whereas if you added Viv levels to the Slayer's Sneak Attack progression, it would look something like this:
CL3: 1d6
CL6: 2d6
CL9: 3d6
CL12: 4d6
etc.
The second one seems odd as it would effectively negate the Level 1 SA bonus for a Vivisectionist, but I could see it possibly being a rare case where cross-classing makes one of the base classes less powerful. I was originally thinking that it would work by simply adding the SA bonuses together, but then the Viv has that wording which makes that interpretation less likely.
Again, I find it more likely that the second case would be the way it should be treated, but it's one of those things I'd rather be wrong about.
So I was recently working on trying to make a Slayer build from the Advanced Class Guide, and I came across something interesting while doing research on cross-class options. From the Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack entry, it has the following description:
At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack's extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on).Herein lies my question. In this entry, it states that if the Vivisectionist receives Sneak Attack from another class, then that class's levels stack with the Vivisectionist's to determine the effective Rogue level for the Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack. For people who don't have the Advanced Class Guide, this rule seems faulty with the Slayer, as Slayers gain 1d6 Sneak Attack damage every third level instead of the standard odd-level scaling that Rogues get. However, these levels still grant a Sneak Attack bonus, and as per the Vivisectionist rules, these Slayer Levels would instead grant Sneak Attack bonus damage based on Rogue level progression.
I know that the Advanced Class Guide has some faulty rules still, so I wouldn't be surprised if something like this slipped through. I'm curious to know if I'm interpreting these rules correctly, because if so, a level 1 dip in Vivisectionist greatly increases the Slayer's power level. However, I'm assuming that the RAI for a Slayer was actually meant to be something along the following:
"If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective Slayer level for the sneak attack's extra damage dice (so a Slayer 3/Vivisectionist 3 has a +2d6 sneak...
Add the Slayer to the Vivi rather than add the Vivi to the Slayer is how I'd do it.
Example:
A Slayer 1/Vivi 1 still has Sneak Attack +1d6, but a Slayer 3/Vivi 1 has Sneak Attack +2d6.
However, a Slayer 5/Vivi 2 has Sneak Attack +3d6 (since a Slayer is every 3 levels, the Vivi's 2nd level counts for the missing Slayer level)
It is a frequent consensus that if rules are bipolar one should rule in favor. In favor of the player in that case.
Also note that as the Vivisectionists rule explicitly states it grants quicker progression regardless of other classes then unless something else explicitly overrules that statement - it takes precedence.
Rule lawyerism says Slayer with even 1 level of Viv progresses sneak attack every odd level. Do not argue with lawyers - they have the blessing of Asmodeus :D
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I'd probably go with the lowest Sneak Attack value (add Slayer levels to Viv for SA and Viv dice to Slayer and see which has the least number of SA dice.) This is even more complicated if there is a difference.
That royally screws over a high-level Viv or Rogue with a Slayer Dip, since all those 1/2 progression SA levels from Rogue/Viv turn into 1/3.
I personally think the fairest way to do it is convert SA to fractional dice, then add those.
Assuming Slayer SA advances at level 1, 4, 7 etc (I don't know):
- Viv 4 / Slayer 1 has 2.5 dice from Viv and 1 die from Slayer, so 3.5 = 3 dice (round down).
- Viv 1 / Slayer 4 has 1 die from Viv and 2 from Slayer = 3 dice.
- Viv 4 / Slayer 3 has 2.5 dice from Viv and 1.6 dice from Slayer, so 4.1 = 4 dice (round).
- Viv 10 / Slayer 3 = 5.5+1.6 = 7.1 = 7 dice
- Viv 3 / Slayer 10 = 2+4 = 6 dice
This way one level in a class with a different SA progression won't cause massive swings in your SA die - Slayer isn't a horrible dip for a Viv/Rogue, and Viv/Rogue isn't a fantastic dip for a Slayer. But if you're almost to a new die in two separate SA classes you'll get the boost.
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I personally think the fairest way to do it is convert SA to fractional dice, then add those.Assuming Slayer SA advances at level 1, 4, 7 etc (I don't know):
- Viv 4 / Slayer 1 has 2.5 dice from Viv and 1 die from Slayer, so 3.5 = 3 dice (round down).
- Viv 1 / Slayer 4 has 1 die from Viv and 2 from Slayer = 3 dice.
- Viv 4 / Slayer 3 has 2.5 dice from Viv and 1.6 dice from Slayer, so 4.1 = 4 dice (round).
- Viv 10 / Slayer 3 = 5.5+1.6 = 7.1 = 7 dice
- Viv 3 / Slayer 10 = 2+4 = 6 dice
This way one level in a class with a different SA progression won't cause massive swings in your SA die - Slayer isn't a horrible dip for a Viv/Rogue, and Viv/Rogue isn't a fantastic dip for a Slayer. But if you're almost to a new die in two separate SA classes you'll get the boost.
This seems like a fair way to play it. Seems like that'd be difficult to describe in the rules, but this is likely the most balanced way to handle it. Granted, with these rules, it brings up the age-old Viv-Rogue dip issue where two levels gives you as many SA die as a 3rd level rogue, so its definitely not without its flaws.
Also, you have Slayer progression pretty accurate, except they get their first SA die at Level 3 rather than Level 1 like most other classes, and then gain +1d6 every three levels after. It's pretty slow.
Rule lawyerism says Slayer with even 1 level of Viv progresses sneak attack every odd level. Do not argue with lawyers - they have the blessing of Asmodeus :D
Not sure how I feel about siding with a Lawful Evil deity lol.
Also, I just realized that Vivisectionist is banned in PFS play, so this issue doesn't really affect me that much, but I would love to see this errata'd for rules cohesion's sake.
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This seems like a fair way to play it. Seems like that'd be difficult to describe in the rules, but this is likely the most balanced way to handle it. Granted, with these rules, it brings up the age-old Viv-Rogue dip issue where two levels gives you as many SA die as a 3rd level rogue, so its definitely not without its flaws.
You mean Viv 1 Rogue 1 = 2d6 SA (like a Viv or Rogue 3)? Now that I think about it, the "add levels" instead of "add dice" methods looks designed to avoid exactly that.
Recommended change with wording:
"If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack. Multiply the number of levels in each class by the fractional sneak attack granted by each level in that class (1/2 if improved every other level, 1/3 if improved every 3rd level, etc). Add the fractions to determine how many sneak attack dice the character has, rounding fractions of 1/2 or higher up.
For effects related to sneak attack dependent on rogue level (such as whether you may flank a character with uncanny dodge) you count as a rogue of a level equal to twice your fraction (rounded down)."
Same progression as currently for the Viv/Rogue:
Viv 1 Rogue 1 = 1(.5) + 1(.5) = 1 (like Rogue 2)
Viv 2 Rogue 1 = 2(.5) + 1(.5) = 1.5 -> 2 (like Rogue 3)
Reasonable progression for the Slayer/Rogue or Viv:
Slayer 1 Rogue 1 = 1(1/3)+ 1(1/2) = .8 -> 1 (like Rogue 2)
Slayer 2 Rogue 1 = 2(1/3)+ 1(1/2) = 1.1 -> 1 (like Slayer 3 or Rogue 2)
Slayer 1 Rogue 2 = 1(1/3)+ 2(1/2) = 1.3 -> 1 (ditto)
Rogue gets better SA than slayer so it makes sense that dipping rogue would give you the same SA as adding a level in slayer. However, slayer gets worse SA so adding a level in slayer won't always give you the SA that adding a level in rogue will. At higher levels a multiclass will always have a SA at least as good as a full-class slayer, but no better than a full-class rogue:
Slayer 4 Rogue 3 = 4(1/3)+ 3(1/2) = 2.7 -> 3 (Rogue 5 or Slayer 6**)
Slayer 3 Rogue 7 = 3(1/3)+ 7(1/2) = 4.5 -> 5 (Rogue 9 or Slayer 15^)
Slayer 4 Rogue 9 = 4(1/3)+ 9(1/2) = 5.8 -> 6 (Rogue 11 or Slayer 18^^)
**Same as slayer 7, worse than full rogue 7.
^Better than full slayer 10, same as full rogue 10.
^^Better than slayer 13, worse than rogue 13.
Like to point out here slayer/rogue is impossible due to hybrid class rules (unless they changed that). Carry on!
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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effectively negate the Level 1 SA bonus
That is the design goal of the rules. A Rogue 1/Viv 1 would only have 1d6 Sneak Attack.
Like to point out here slayer/rogue is impossible due to hybrid class rules (unless they changed that). Carry on!
As to royally screwing over as someone else said, there are very few 1/2 SA progressions legal with Slayer. But I'd add them at 1/3 like Slayer.