Is there a legal way to get a tiny eidolon? Summoners that step on no toes ..

[insaneogeddon]

Player wanting a familiar without the dying head ache that can have its own feats yet is also linked to player.

The concept is along the lines of the shair from the 2nd ed. Al-Qadim setting (caster with a mini genie on shoulder).

They thinking the oread summoner archetype as eidolon gets free spell abilities they are modelling it after a gen (mini-genie).

I really like the idea and think it is what the class should have been. It stops the eidolon from being a better 'warrior' than the warrior classes and fills a gap in the class role call yet to be filled, is cool, adds to the RP AND is very classic fantasy.

And lets face it familiars aren't that popular unless its a game where the DM mothers/ignores the familiar.

I was wondering if there is a legal way to make the eidolon tiny?

Or should I just make up a campaign specific archetype?

If so are these too much?

1.As oread archetype but available to any human, half-orc/elf, sylph,undine, iffrit, oread or suli-jann.
2. a tiny eidolon that can always be present.
3. ? the ability to use their summon ability while the eidolon is present (elemental creatures only)
4. ? Access to elemental arcane school spells of one chosen element (as 4 elemental wizard schools) as a spontaneous caster ability (if the gen/eidolon is present).
5. ? The gen/eidolon gets the specialist elemental arcane school abilities of a wizard of equivalent level OR the BASE domain abilities of the appropriate domain(air/earth/fire/water) so no sub-domain powers

[cartmanbeck]

The only way to pull this of by the rules currently is to choose to start your eidolon off as a Small creature and then cast reduce person on it.

Another option would be to have him be another class that grants a familiar, such as the Magus (use an arcana to gain the familiar) or the Arcane bloodline Sorcerer, and then spend some feats on Evolved Familiar to give it a few evolutions.

I think the campaign-specific archetype would be the way to go though. Starting it off at Tiny size should give it a +4 to Dex, a -8 to Strength, and a -4 to Con, so I would drop the Con penalty to keep its hit points decent.

Summoning another creature while it's present would be fine, it won't be a combatant for the most part anyway.

The summoner is already a spontaneous caster, so just adding elemental spells to his list depending on the element type of the eidolon would accomplish that goal. If you're trying to give the eidolon itself some spells, these should be at the cost of evolution points.

Giving the elementalist arcane school powers should replace several normal Summoner abilities, so make sure you decide what gets replaced before you let your player run wild. I would suggest replacing Life Link and Transposition.

With your permission, I might use some of the general ideas you've come up with here to create an archetype and publish it in a near-future CLASSifieds supplement from Fat Goblin Games. I would be happy to drop you an acknowledgement in the credits if you're cool with it.

[Wiggz]

We're currently putting together a party for a run in Mummy's Mask and its going to include not one but two Summoners - one a standard Summoner that rides his eidolon (which looks like a giant scorpion with multiple pincers), and the other a Master Summoner's who's eidolon is supposed to look like a scarab, and who's sole purpose is as a spy/scout. To that end, he wanted to make it tiny and I posted a question regarding that possibility on these boards.

I was directed to another site, one which featured alternate rules for eidolons including options for one of tiny size. I'm sorry to say that I can't find the link at the moment though I'm sure someone else can supply it - the option as written was very reasonable in ability and power level and I don't think it would be a hard sell to any GM who's already willing to allow a Summoner in his game.

Regarding your questions, the best way to pursue such a thing would seem to be via Master Summoner (who can Summon with his eidolon out) and take the Eldritch Heritage feats for the elemental bloodline of your choice. Beyond that I think you may be reaching a little too far...

[insaneogeddon]

cartmanbeck wrote:

The only way to pull this of by the rules currently is to choose to start your eidolon off as a Small creature and then cast reduce person on it.

Another option would be to have him be another class that grants a familiar, such as the Magus (use an arcana to gain the familiar) or the Arcane bloodline Sorcerer, and then spend some feats on Evolved Familiar to give it a few evolutions.

I think the campaign-specific archetype would be the way to go though. Starting it off at Tiny size should give it a +4 to Dex, a -8 to Strength, and a -4 to Con, so I would drop the Con penalty to keep its hit points decent.

Summoning another creature while it's present would be fine, it won't be a combatant for the most part anyway.

The summoner is already a spontaneous caster, so just adding elemental spells to his list depending on the element type of the eidolon would accomplish that goal. If you're trying to give the eidolon itself some spells, these should be at the cost of evolution points.

Giving the elementalist arcane school powers should replace several normal Summoner abilities, so make sure you decide what gets replaced before you let your player run wild. I would suggest replacing Life Link and Transposition.

With your permission, I might use some of the general ideas you've come up with here to create an archetype and publish it in a near-future CLASSifieds supplement from Fat Goblin Games. I would be happy to drop you an acknowledgement in the credits if you're cool with it.

By all means.

Decided on cleric domain powers for gen/eildolon as their specifically elemental, equitable (so no one type dominance)=include resistance and a zappower.

I might increase the summons list as its pretty limited if its elemental type/subtype only creatures (if only there was an elemental type template =much easier).

Forgot spont. caster so will just allow elementalist spells (as element chosen).

As the downsize is a severe debuff I wouldn't replace any abilities exp. as life link and transposition make a scout more useful.
Anyway look at it its still a weaker summoner.

Might give an arbitrary +2 con bonus in addition to the oread summoners +2 to any stat and bonus magic traits (but will need to expand the spell selections).

Then see if it passes players vito and accompanying headaches and time wasting, at least if its base rules can ignore players biatchin !!

[insaneogeddon]

Think paizo should get some of the Al-Qadim writers on board. They should get the credit, it always was a great fantasy setting.

[Diego Rossi]

The idea is great; I loved the setting of Al-Quadim and the concept of the gen.

Be careful with the extra spells. They will replace a major feature of the summoner (the eidolon) but the summoner has already a very powerful spell list. Dominate Monster is a 9th level spell that he can use as a 6th level spell. 45% of the spell in the summoner spell list in the APG have a lower spell level that the corresponding wizard or cleric spell.
The summoner spell list is a 9 level spell list compressed in a6 level list.

3/4 BAB and charisma being the casting stat work very well with the shair concept, but be careful about overdoing it.

If you keep your archetype as a charisma based spontaneous spellcaster you could give the eidolon the ability to fetch a alternate know spell to his master a limited number of times a day.
Something like: "the eidolon go to his home plane for x rounds/minutes/teen of minutes, depending on the spell level and when he return he will teach you how to cast spell X. That knowledge will stay in your mind for 24 hours".

[insaneogeddon]

Extra spells not replacing the feature just IN-ADDITION to as compensation for having a tiny (combat weak) eidolon.

Never mind as a reward for not stealing warriors thunder and focusing on the RP and in game use of a small familiar you don't need to fret about and so conveniently forget about!

[cartmanbeck]

Honestly, making the eidolon tiny makes it MORE powerful than if it were Small size (because of the huge bonuses to skills and not having to use any ability points on Strength), which is a current option available, so I agree with Diego that you can't just drop in extra spells on top of it.