I'm trying to figure out if a PC that gains a subtype as part of a class feature is intended to gain all the benefits of the subtype, or only the benefits explicitly mentioned in the class feature itself.
Thoughts?
Example 1:
A) Proficient with its natural weapons, with simple weapons, and with any weapons mentioned in the creature's description.
B) Proficient with any armor mentioned in the creature's description, as well as all lighter forms. If no form of armor is mentioned, the shapechanger is not proficient with armor. A shapechanger is proficient with shields if it is proficient with any type of armor.
Example 2:
Outsider:
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. An outsider has the following features.
d10 Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
A) Darkvision 60 feet.
B) Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
C) Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
D) Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
E) Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
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It has been covered elsewhere that weapon and armor proficiencies of creature types and subtypes are only for creatures with racial HD (creatures that have 0-HD use their class for weapon/armor prof.).
So, the Shapechanger subtype would give everything but weapon and armor proficiencies.
However, you should get proficiency in the natural weapons (that's kind of understood, even if not explicitly mentioned, from the Beast Shape spells).
The Rakshasa Bloodline is very clear: you are only treated as a native outsider for the purpose of spells and other magical effects, so that's all you get.
It has been covered elsewhere that weapon and armor proficiencies of creature types and subtypes are only for creatures with racial HD (creatures that have 0-HD use their class for weapon/armor prof.)
Okay. Do you know offhand where that's covered?
The Rakshasa Bloodline is very clear: you are only treated as a native outsider for the purpose of spells and other magical effects, so that's all you get.
Right. So if you you put on purple Lenses of Situational Sight, do you treat it as though you already have darkvision from the subtype, and increase the range?
What if someone hits you with Shadowstrike (sp)? darkvision negates part of it...could you be dazzled or not?
...But you don't automatically gain the effects listed under the beastiary subtype entries unless the ability says so; those are more for creatures born as a particular type or subtype.
Okay. I've got a player presenting the issue, thus my interest. Can you point me at something in the rules that makes this clear? I just want to be able to explain the ruling one way or the other.
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It has been covered elsewhere that weapon and armor proficiencies of creature types and subtypes are only for creatures with racial HD (creatures that have 0-HD use their class for weapon/armor prof.)Okay. Do you know offhand where that's covered?
In the Advanced Race Guide, under the Race Builder section.
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In the Advanced Race Guide (Race Builder section: Type):
The first paragraph discusses it.
As for the Lenses of Situational Sight, you still have to have Darkvision to benefit. As the Rakshasa bloodline doesn't grant you Darkvision, I'd say that the item would give you 60 ft. Darkvision.
Edit: Ninja'd!
In the Advanced Race Guide, under the Race Builder section.It has been covered elsewhere that weapon and armor proficiencies of creature types and subtypes are only for creatures with racial HD (creatures that have 0-HD use their class for weapon/armor prof.)Okay. Do you know offhand where that's covered?
Aha. Thanks. This?
This section features numerous examples of races designed with the race builder. This section also features examples of races that would normally have racial Hit Dice, skills, and other abilities. PC members of such races, however, calculate these benefits based solely on their class.
...
As for the Lenses of Situational Sight, you still have to have Darkvision to benefit. As the Rakshasa bloodline doesn't grant you Darkvision, I'd say that the item would give you 60 ft. Darkvision.
Thanks. That's where I was getting hung up. The Native outsider subtype provides darkvision. An magical effect that was based on darkvision seemed like it was an unclear case given the way the "treated as" line from Rakshasa was written.
Yes.
It's a terrible place to put it, I agree. Reference in the Bestiary would be handier.
I think the developers just assumed that understanding would carry over from 3.X
Serves me right for never playing 3.x then. :)
Thanks for the help folks.
Thanks. That's where I was getting hung up. The Native outsider subtype provides darkvision. An magical effect that was based on darkvision seemed like it was an unclear case given the way the "treated as" line from Rakshasa was written....
As for the Lenses of Situational Sight, you still have to have Darkvision to benefit. As the Rakshasa bloodline doesn't grant you Darkvision, I'd say that the item would give you 60 ft. Darkvision.
Yet there are native outsiders (Sulis, for example, as well as other races with alternate racial traits) who lack darkvision.
Thanks. That's where I was getting hung up. The Native outsider subtype provides darkvision. An magical effect that was based on darkvision seemed like it was an unclear case given the way the "treated as" line from Rakshasa was written.Yet there are native outsiders (Sulis, for example, as well as other races with alternate racial traits) who lack darkvision.
Yup, of this I am aware. That fact didn't really make the intent of gaining a subtype any clearer in this context. Thus, I asked.