Starting up my first adventure path this week and looking for a little advice on the character/adventure (non spoiler advice please). GM allowed me to take Duergar as a starting race and go Stonelord (Paladin archetype). He even allowed me to use weapon familiarity with Dwarven weapons (can count exotic as martial if Dwarven is in the name). For the other three characters I have played, we have only done homebrew stuff, so this is my first stab at an actual AP.
Was hoping for some advice on what I have and how folks think it may work in RotRL. In case it helps, here is how the rest of my party is looking (with one yet to be determined role):
--Gunslinger
--Bard
--Oracle
--Summoner
--Witch
Grymlar, Stonelord of Kols
Male Duergar Paladin (Stonelord) 1
LG Medium Humanoid (Duergar)
Init +2; Senses Superior Darkvision; Perception +7
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +2 shield, +2 Dex)
hp 13 (1d10+3)
Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +4; +1 trait bonus vs. spells, spell-like abilities, and poison, +2 vs. spells and spell-like abilities, immune to paralysis, phantasms, and poison.
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee:
. . Dwarven Longhammer +4 (2d6+3/x3 & reach) and
. . Dwarven Waraxe +4 (1d10+3/x3) and
. . Dwarven Boulder Helm (1d4+3/x2)
Special Attacks stonestrike +1 (1 rounds/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Detect Evil (At will)
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14(+2), Int 12, Wis 12(+2), Cha 7(-4)
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 16 (20 vs. Bull Rush, 20 vs. Trip while on solid ground)
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round)
Traits Giant Slayer, Steel Skin, Glory of Old
Drawback Pride
Skills (listing those more than 1): Heal (2), Intimidate (2), Knowledge: History (5), Perception (7), Sense Motive (7)
Languages Common, Dwarven, Undercommon, Goblin
Other Gear Four-mirror armor, Heavy wooden shield, Dwarven longhammer, Dwarven Boulder Helmet, Longbow, Dwarven Waraxe, Dwarven Longaxe
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Special Abilities
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Aura of Good (Ex) The paladin has an Aura of Good with power equal to her class level.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Giant Slayer +1 bluff, perception, and sense motive & +1 attack/dmg vs giants
Glory of Old You receive a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, and poison.
Steel Skin +2 intimidate, don armor in 1/2 the time
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Stonestrike +1 (1 rounds/day) (Su) Gain bonus to att/dam/CMB, ignore 2 hardness & if on earth/stone add to CMD.
Any non spoiler advice you can share about suggestions for tweaks or overall thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
Oh yeah...any suggestions on what would be helpful from the yet to be determined role would be awesome.
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For the yet to be determined role:An alchemist could help, for some secondary melee and AoE power [because of those swarms. You must watch out for those swarms]. So could a rogue[not necessarily the type, but a skill-monkey trap character]. The party might be taking care of this, but with the typical assumption of each role, you have Healer, Buffer, Debuffer, Summoner, Tank, Ranged Combatant, Knowledge Monkey, and an abundance of Face.
For Grymlar:It may seem weird but raising your charisma would be a great thing, and worth lowering INT a bit. Its hard for a Duergar, with the -4CHA, but even just another 1 point put in could be severly helpful, since you can effectively remove the limitation on Defensive Stance[which is a lack of mobility] by taking Fatigued mercy at level 6. Lay on Hands being a swift action, it helps a lot with moving. I have only played a Stonelord once, for two fights, as a one-time thing at a high level, but stance-cycling helped a ton.
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I would Advise taking those three points you used on making your Dex 14 and making your Strength 17. as a stonelord you are going to be wearing very heavy armor so dex more than +1 is a waste.
I have a Stonelord in PFS. they are very good at being a "cork" so using doorways to block the enemy getting to your squishy companions. your major disadvantages are going to be "Stealth" and Armor check skills. so invest in magical bonuses to your armor that mitigate your stealth issue. and i advise glamoring your armor as NPC's will be more likely to attack you if you look like your just wearing a robe as apposed to Stone plate.
if you are not progressing towards magical Stone plate you are not playing a stone lord.
I also highly recommend some combat maneuvers like improved trip, improved reposition, improved drag. etc Which you will need a INT 13 for this will stop your opponents from getting bored with not hitting you and going over to attack your allies.
keep your charisma Dumped as low as possible. you are not a Face.
why did you choose combat reflexes as your only feat. "Power attack" or Combat expertiese (so you can get improved trip at 3rd level.)
I did build a Stonelord Paladin a while ago, and I was surprised by how interesting the archetype is.
You can find him here, if you're interested. This post displays his abilities at levels 1, 3, 6 and 10. I also added a few notes about what he can do and his favorite tactics at each of those levels.
Hopefully this can give you a few ideas on how to create your character. Adapting the build to your own taste and play style shouldn't be difficult at all.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for all the speedy advice everyone!
I guess I should have explained what I was going for with this build. My plan was to use reach to keep folks at bay (hence the combat reflexes) to protect my party. Was very much shooting for the role of "cork" that Humphry mentioned (as "tank" like as I could get while still dealing damage to draw enemies attention).
Now that is out of the way, here are some responses to a few things:
--@ArmouredMonk - what would you suggest I bump down to raise my CHA?
--@Humphry - I bumped my dex to +2 and picked up combat reflexes for more AoO to keep the enemies at bay. Are you suggesting I just stick with the one AoO per round?
--@Lemmy - I actually saw your builds and mercilessly stole some ideas from it. Have any thoughts on the changes I made?
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I think you will be just fine with your plan. The SLAs for Druegar will be very handy. Stonelord Paladin is also a great choice.
Suggestions:
I agree with Humphrey; take Power Attack as your first feat.
Later, you might think about boosting Dex with a Str/Dex belt and then take Combat Reflexes to capitalize on your reach. It's not a bad idea, but you don't have the Dex to make it worth your 1st level feat, especially when you compare it to how strong Power Attack is.
Lunge might be a good idea to help you capitalize on your Defensive Stance. Maybe take it as your 3rd or 5th level feat?
With a Longhammer, Lunge, and Enlarge Person, you would have a reach of 25' Keep the Boulder Helm so you still threaten close-up, but don't buff it with those silly helm Feats. Making it a +1 helm at some point is a good plan.
That will make Combat Reflexes worthwhile.
Extra Lay on Hands is something to think about. Swift action self-healing is very important. You will get smacked around a lot.
Otherwise, Improved Initiative, Toughness, Fight-On, and Iron Hide are all solid choices too.
The only reason I agree with the Combat Expertise / Improved Trip strategy is because you have a Bard in the party. They will be able to help you boost your CMB to a level where it will stay relevant. If you decide to make the investment, you just might have some luck with it. If you go with Combat Expertise, I suggest taking Improved/Greater Dirty Trick as well as Trip. It is a very, very useful maneuver.
I think Improved Drag or Improved Bull Rush is probably a better idea though. You don't have to invest in Int and Combat Expertise to get those Feats. Unless you're a Fighter with loads of free Feats, Combat Maneuver Feats will probably have to be purely recreational.
Don't forget that with your insane reach, you can simply use whatever combat maneuvers you think will be useful whenever you want. Your bonus won't be huge, but the chances of a bad guy being able to actually reach you with the AOO you provoke is slim. Trip away!
Also, your damage on the Longhammer at 1st should be 2d6+4 (1.5 x Str for 2-handed weapons)
I'd drop Int to 10 and Dex to 12. Then boost Str. You don't need the skill points and the Dex is so-so due to your armor check penalties.
FYI, persuading the casters in the party to take crafting feats is smart. At least get someone to take Craft Wondrous... ideally, Craft Magic Arms and Armor. You will love them forever at mid levels for this.
When my group ran through RotRL, we had:
1/2 Orc Fighter
Human Wizard
Human Rogue
Dwarf Druid
Human Cleric
Gnome Sorcerer
Human Paladin
We had the ability to solve most of the problems we faced. I recommend that your friend that hasn't made up their mind consider a front-line melee type character.
They will be glad that they did.
More excellent advice! Thanks so much!
I swapped out combat reflexes for Power Attack and adjusted my STR bonuses (to add 1.5 dmg for 2H weapons). I also adjusted my stats so they look like this now:
STR: 17
DEX: 12
CON: 16
INT: 12
WIS: 14
CHA: 3
I am down to lower my INT more, but what do you suggest I do with the left over points?
@Lemmy - I actually saw your builds and mercilessly stole some ideas from it. Have any thoughts on the changes I made?
Ah, true! I just realized you're the same person who asked for advice on a Stonelord build a few days ago. lol. My bad... Forgive my poor memory. ;)
Personally, I like Dex 14 for Combat Reflexes, it makes a nice crowd control when combined with a reach weapon and lunge... Also, I really like Combat Reflexes... -.-'
I'm not sure if I'd go with Cha below 5... Any Cha-draining effect will
Always take Power Attack at 3~5th level or so... Getting it earlier than that is unnecessary, since you pretty much kill anything with a single hit anyway, but getting it later than 5th level can be problematic.
Possible ideas for level 6+: Intimidating Prowess and Cornugon Smash, so you can intimidate your enemies every time you hit them with Power Attack. Only problem is that both Lunge and Cornugon Smash become available at 6th level, so Cornugon Smash wold probably have to wait til level 9.
A paladin with 3 Charisma--now I've it all! Haha.
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Dumping any stat below 7 is a mistake IMO.
At 3 Cha, any ability damaging/draining effect will take you out in one shot.
There are plenty of monsters that can inflict stat penalties with their attacks in the Bestiaries. Let alone the fact that a stat of 3 will involve some serious RP effort.
Recommended stats for a 20 point buy(standard) Druegar Paladin:
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 8
All level bonuses should go to Str.
I don't think you need much Int; beyond Perception, there's really nothing that important to rank up. You will not be the party face or the Knowledge monkey... you're a Druegar.
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I don't think I could make a Dwarven character and not take Steel Soul.
I can go whole combats without making an attack of opportunity. Not making a save is rarer than that.
I agree with this, but the OP said he would like to be a Druegar. They don't have the Hardy racial trait and there's no way for them to get it. So, no Steel Soul.
Saves will be a relative weak spot, unfortunately.
Steel Soul is overkill for a Paladin Dwarf/Duergar with good Con and Wis scores. This build will have amazing saves anyway (especially since Stonelord can boost Wisdom instead of Cha), but like every other Paladin, it's very feat-starved.
BTW I'm completely against dumping Int. I simply can't stand to have less than 3~4 skill points per level. Having a single one would be a nightmare.
Perception, Sense Motive, Kn(Religion) and maybe Intimidate (if you want to go the Intimidating Prowess & Cornugon Smash route) would be amazing...
No worries on not remembering Lem...you have been super helpful so far :)
Now a few questions. Please excuse me if these seem dumb, but I am still relatively new to the game:
--GM said I couldn't take Steel Soul due to not having Hardy, BUT I do get some bonuses similar to to Hardy (immune to poison and +2 saves to spells and SLAs). Am I still going to be hurting on saves with that and my starting scores (Fort-5, Ref-1, Will-4)? Part of why I wanted to go +2 DEX score was to raise the ref save.
--I was under the impression that CHA only impacted my Lay on Hands (since I am different than other Paladins). I also liked the idea of having a super low CHA since I am a Duergar and am commonly seen as an "evil" race. Without going too deep into my backstory, I am a good Duergar (essentially from the Duergar police), but I am still a Duergar (I will look down on pretty much every other race). I thought this would be a nice flavor touch to add to my character. Now, my question...if we did fight NPCs with ability score drain and they dropped me below 3, what would that do to me from a gameplay point of view?
--I initially opted for Combat Reflexes over Power Attack to help protect my relatively squishy across the board party members. I figured using a reach weapon and planning on tripping folks for AoO would be a good way to go. Based on who else is in my party (listed above), would you still suggest going Power Attack at level one?
Thanks for all the advice so far everyone!
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The charisma only effects LoH, yes, but LoH+Fatigued Mercy[the only one you get, at level 6]=Mobile Defensive Stance. Because after a while the GM will make it harder and harder for you to get full attacks since you must wait until level 17 to even just get a 5ft step.
As to your Reflex save, that isn't too important to pump, especially since you don't really have a blasty caster in the party. Reflex saves are almost always damage[which you have defense against via High CON+d10HD] with save for 1/2. I wouldn't worry about it.
Oh, gotcha...I guess I misread the LoH description. I thought it was a minimum of one use, but, after reading it again, I guess I get zero uses of LoH with a negative modifier...is that right?
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Oh, gotcha...I guess I misread the LoH description. I thought it was a minimum of one use, but, after reading it again, I guess I get zero uses of LoH with a negative modifier...is that right?
You can, yes.
Though even with a 3 you'll eventually get a few. Still, I'd go Cha 6 as the lowest viable level, and an 8 would be preferable. Extra Lay on Hands is also a good Feat for this build...
Ok, so now that I actually reread the description for LoH, I swapped my stats around to what is below. I figured with this, by the time I get fatigued mercy, I can actually use it.
Would love some thoughts on this:
STR: 15
DEX: 13
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 16
CHA: 6
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Ok, so now that I actually reread the description for LoH, I swapped my stats around to what is below. I figured with this, by the time I get fatigued mercy, I can actually use it.
Would love some thoughts on this:
STR: 15
DEX: 13
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 16
CHA: 6
Personally, I'd go less Wisdom (down to 14) more Strength (up to 16)...but either way probably works.
No worries on not remembering Lem...you have been super helpful so far :)
Now a few questions. Please excuse me if these seem dumb, but I am still relatively new to the game:
--GM said I couldn't take Steel Soul due to not having Hardy, BUT I do get some bonuses similar to to Hardy (immune to poison and +2 saves to spells and SLAs). Am I still going to be hurting on saves with that and my starting scores (Fort-5, Ref-1, Will-4)? Part of why I wanted to go +2 DEX score was to raise the ref save.
Your Reflex save will never be great, but it can be decent, and Reflex is the least important save past level 6 or so... Failing it usually means you take damage, OTOH, failing Fort and Will often (not always, but often) means you'll die and/or kill your allies... and then die.
Luckily, you have... Dwarf bonus against spells, poison ans spell-like abilities, good Con and Wis (I would go with 14 on both, then increase them with gear. You should get Str 16, at least), good Fort and Will save progression (due to being a Paladin), a few immunities (again, due to being a Paladin). Buy Cloaks of Resistance, belts of Str/Con and(later) headbands of Wisdom, and your saves will be fine.Now, my question...if we did fight NPCs with ability score drain and they dropped me below 3, what would that do to me from a gameplay point of view?
You would lose access to your LoH 'til you recovered from that ability damage.
--I initially opted for Combat Reflexes over Power Attack to help protect my relatively squishy across the board party members. I figured using a reach weapon and planning on tripping folks for AoO would be a good way to go. Based on who else is in my party (listed above), would you still suggest going Power Attack at level one?
PA at 1st level is unnecessary. At levels 1, 2 and possibly 3, you kill most enemies with a hit or two, so PA will barely make any difference. At those levels, accuracy is much more important than damage. I'd save PA for 3rd or 5th level.
That said, I wouldn't start with Str below 16 at the very least. 2-handed weapons really start to show their power once you reach Str 18 (which is why I gave Rocky Str 17), but you can also start with Str 16 and push it to 18 with a Belt of Giant Str.
Also, when you have a little spare money, add some masterwork Armor Spikes to your armor (and give them a +1 enhancement later), so that you can threaten adjacent squares... It won't be as good as you're with your main weapon, but at least you get to make AoO.
Thanks for all the advice so far everyone!
I'm glad we can help
Good deal. Since we have yet to start, I keep forgetting about gear to add to my stats, so thanks for the reminder. I have the Dwarven Boulder Helm already...would you still recommend that I get armor spikes?
Also, tweaked my stats to the following (these include racial bonuses added in already):
STR: 16
DEX: 13
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 14
CHA: 6
Thoughts?
Thanks again!
Good deal. Since we have yet to start, I keep forgetting about gear to add to my stats, so thanks for the reminder. I have the Dwarven Boulder Helm already...would you still recommend that I get armor spikes?
Nah... As long as you have a way to threaten adjacent squares, it's fine.
Also, tweaked my stats to the following (these include racial bonuses added in already):
STR: 16
DEX: 13
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 14
CHA: 6Thoughts?
Thanks again!
Not a bad set, although I think you could go with Con 14 and get higher Dex. Dex 13 won't help you any more than Dex 12, and you should probably put all your level-up attribute increase into Str, to make sure you damage and accuracy stay high and enemies have a reason to attack you.
For a similar set, I'd with Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 6. Also, I just remembered Duerga are immune to Paralysis, Phantasms and Poison... So that Con 16 is even more of an overkill. :P
Really, with a d10 HD, Con 14, Defensive Stance and bonuses from things such as Belts of Str/Con, you'll have lots of HP one way or another.
Also, you might want to consider the Daysighted alternate racial trait... It reduces your Darkvision to "only" 60ft, but removes your Light-Sensitivity. How good of a deal it is depends on what kind of campaign you'll be playing.
We are doing Rise of the Runelords...never done it before, so I am unsure how often we will be above ground.
Will def make that change then. Thanks Deadmanwalking! Will also tweak the stat as you suggested Lemmy.
Thanks everyone!
Any last minute, non spoilery tips for RotRL overall? We start tomorrow!
I couldn't spoil RoTR for you even if I wanted to. Haven't played it yet (although my group is thinking of starting it this month).
Can't think of anything specific, just the usual advice...
- Get a masterwork composite longbow when you can, make it +1 and Adaptive at some point.
- When you have some cash, buy some wands of CLW and at least one of Lesser Restoration (the whole party should pitch in for these wands).
- Carry a back up weapon, just in case (although in your case, specifically, the boulder helmet can work as backup weapon if you ever lose your hammer)
- Try and get as much information about your next challenge/enemy/puzzle/dungeon-to-be-explored as you can. Knowledge is half the battle.
I'm glad we could help. And sincerely hope you have fun.
If you want any suggestion, advice or idea, feel free to PM me or create another thread.
Enjoy your game.
Thanks so much Lemmy...between this thread and the few others you have suggested things on, I greatly appreciate it!