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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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"The shaft of this arrow is formed of numerous small bone fragments painstakingly glued together.
Benefit: When fired, the numerous bone fragments tear themselves apart, forming a 5-foot burst of razor-sharp bones that deals 1d3 points of piercing damage (Reflex DC 18 negates)."
Okay, I really doubt that this just explodes in someones own face when firing it, so I think it's safe to say it lands in the space I fire it at, and then it covers 8 squares (possibly the 9 above, and if it's in the air, also the 9 below?) giving all targets a reflex save to negate the damage.
Here are things I want to know.
1. Do weapon enhancements work for this?
2. STR damage bonus added if I have a mighty bow, or the Adaptive enhancement?
3. Can this be used for swarms?
4. If something takes up more than just one square, is it possible to take multiple hits?
Perhaps I shoot it like a normal arrow if I like, and that does normal damage, and then it explodes into the other effect?
My guess, is that it was designed for #3.
Like this would definitely be counted as a splash weapon given that it scatters and deals damage within a 5 foot burst. I'm curious about if I can add the STR and enhancement damage. Also, if the 5 foot burst will also count for above and below, aside from 360 on the same height.
I want to use this arrow in PFS and I would really appreciate insight on this. I am pretty sure the second I fire one of these, then it's time to pull out sources and have everyone be confused.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Just to be clear: Splintercloud Arrows from "Elves of Golarion" ?
See also this thread, although they don't actually resolve the question.
Yes, that's the one, and the thread definitely doesn't resolve much sadly.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
I'm not certain that you don't target an intersection (there are rules for that, but they're for splash weapons) rather than a critter's AC. Certainly your bow's enchantment would help you hit that intersection, but I don't know about the damage. There's just nothing to go on.
Anyone experienced with ruining pfs as a gm have a way they would run it at least? I have point blank, deadly aim, str bonus to damage, enhancements...
I just want to know what damage I can apply when I blast this at a swarm or group of baddies.
Bumping in hopes of preventing this from going into the abyss again.
Hmmmm...doing some more looking into looking at this.
If it deals 1d3 +str +whatever damage to everything in a 5 foot radius, it becomes absolutely insane. I wouldn't mind an archery option for killing swarms, but you could easily be doing full archery damage to 2, 3, or even 4 creatures at the same time (the difference between a d3 and a d8 being pretty irrelevant when you multiply everything by 2,3,or 4)
If it deals 1d3 damage then its a longer range, weak alchemist fire that you can shoot multiple times per round which is more in line with the price.
I've considered how things can get crazy, but regardless at this item being death bomb of doom I'm looking for best look at it. Enhancement I feel has to be included, but I don't know about the rest.
Perhaps I should make a new thread in the pfs section asking gm's how they'd play it.
Rapanuii wrote: Perhaps I should make a new thread in the pfs section asking gm's how they'd play it. Its not a PFS specific rule so its usually considered bad form to ask what is a flat out rules question there. The arrow doesn't work any differently in PFS than anything else (as opposed to shopping, animal companions, wizard bonded objects, leveling, fame, vanities etc. that have or are pfs specific rules)
I don't think anyone is going to let you blast 4 people per round with archery.
I used these in a PFS scenario with a total of four regular GMs at the table. After much rereading and discussion, we decided that the splintercloud arrow does 1d3 + enhancement bonus + Point Blank Shot (on the main target only).
Our reasoning was that they wouldn't do normal arrow damage, because the text would say so (based on the description pattern of the other arrows in that section). We also figured that since it doesn't do normal arrow damage, they probably wouldn't do Strength damage from the composite bow. The way we envisioned it, since the arrow shatters on a hit, it seems reasonable that it would not be able to convey the additional force/kinetic energy from the composite bow. We did allow it to do +1 damage for Point Blank Shot on the original target but not the surrounding squares, using the same ruling on that feat for splash weapons and alchemist's bombs. We also felt any enhancement bonus that conveys to the ammunition would also apply.
It seemed like a pretty reasonable compromise between "death bomb of doom" and "complete waste of money".
I've used these in PFS. The rules are vague, so expect variation.
I would treat this similar to a Splash Damage weapon except you don't target the creature directly:
PRD wrote: A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as sneak attack).
You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.
Unlike a normal splash weapon, the SplinterArrow does not have a damage for hitting and a separate damage for splash. The way I read it, it's all splash.
1. It's a burst weapon, so you should target an intersection, which means it hits four squares, not 9. AC is usually 5 plus mods like range and cover.
2. You do not add any STR damage bonus.
3. Definitely. The one time I've used these is against a swarm. Though the GM was hesitant to allow it until another player was adamant that it counted as a splash weapon vs a swarm.
4. Per the splash damage rules, I believe you only get one damage roll, though it would make sense for splash weapon to damage a large creature for every square.
It is really not that strong bombs are much worse than this even if you had str to it and other bonus. note the reflex target gets, if it makes save it take no damage what so ever.
I am not sure for a PFS ruling how they work, considering Elves of Golarion is a 3.5 book. they may not even be valid choice for use in PFS because of that.
To tell it is 3.5 book look at the stats on magic items, they require xp to craft them this is no longer required, also the stats for the queen elf in the book has archmage which is a 3.5 prestige class. Mythic teir now in pathfinder and she wears gloves of dex, this is no longer the item in pathfinder it is a belt of dex. She also has no CMB or CMD listed in her stat block. and none of the power that come with being a level 13 wizard. Cure Minor wounds as spell like ablity trait you can get. This is no longer a spell in pathfinder rule sets.
Gwen Smith wrote: I used these in a PFS scenario with a total of four regular GMs at the table. After much rereading and discussion, we decided that the splintercloud arrow does 1d3 + enhancement bonus + Point Blank Shot (on the main target only).
Our reasoning was that they wouldn't do normal arrow damage, because the text would say so (based on the description pattern of the other arrows in that section). We also figured that since it doesn't do normal arrow damage, they probably wouldn't do Strength damage from the composite bow. The way we envisioned it, since the arrow shatters on a hit, it seems reasonable that it would not be able to convey the additional force/kinetic energy from the composite bow. We did allow it to do +1 damage for Point Blank Shot on the original target but not the surrounding squares, using the same ruling on that feat for splash weapons and alchemist's bombs. We also felt any enhancement bonus that conveys to the ammunition would also apply.
It seemed like a pretty reasonable compromise between "death bomb of doom" and "complete waste of money".
Considering how little damage is at stake, I was hard pressed to even debate the issue at my table. However, the arrows states thus:
Quote: When fired, the numerous bone fragments tear themselves apart... I read that as occurring when the arrow is fired, not when it hits. But other than with guns, there really isn't any robust set of rules for something like this. It would be nice if Paizo would go back and add the "scatter" rules for these types of arrows.
KainPen wrote: It is really not that strong bombs are much worse than this even if you had str to it and other bonus. note the reflex target gets, if it makes save it take no damage what so ever.
I am not sure for a PFS ruling how they work, considering Elves of Golarion is a 3.5 book. they may not even be valid choice for use in PFS because of that.
To tell it is 3.5 book look at the stats on magic items, they require xp to craft them this is no longer required, also the stats for the queen elf in the book has archmage which is a 3.5 prestige class. Mythic teir now in pathfinder and she wears gloves of dex, this is no longer the item in pathfinder it is a belt of dex. She also has no CMB or CMD listed in her stat block. and none of the power that come with being a level 13 wizard. Cure Minor wounds as spell like ablity trait you can get. This is no longer a spell in pathfinder rule sets.
To see if any book is valid in PFS, you go to the Additional Resources page. The alchemical arrows from Elves of Golarion are legal for PFS.
Gwen, how are you determining the "main target" and is it auto hit with ref save, or some attack roll?
Are you suggesting this t= target x= radius
xxx
xtx
xxx
Why wouldn't other feats and abilities work? If I'm reaching right, you're saying to apply enhancement to all targets
Reading weapon training, I figure it should work, and deadly aim should work because you're still rolling a ranged attack to hit where you want which results in damage being rolled. Strength score from the composite bow pretty much says you add your strength score for the bow when dealing damage from using the bow.
It might be goofy, but it looks like this is a death bomb of doom. I just don't know if it targets an intersection or a square.
Can anyone argue beyond it sounding over powered to them, or not being correct with real life?
As I said before it is hardly a death bomb of doom. DC 18 reflex negates all the damage possible by it. That is an extremely easy dc to make and it never gets any higher. It quickly lose it effectiveness after level 6. It is nothing compared half orc alchemist force bombs doing over. over 50pts of damage with a single bomb all you have to do is hit easy touch ac, then about 30 points of splash damage dc 27 for half, then doing that again on the 2nd round to the actual target of the bomb all force damage so effect incorporeal goes through dr, no resistance to it. no you can't use deadly aim with it but you don't need to. you can stack other effects on it to if you want. you can two weapon fight, along with rapid shot and many shot. if creature are effected by fire you can make them fire double the blast radius and catch people on fire with out a save. Bombs are cheaper, Vials cost 1 gp one of these arrows 25gp
So it something that cost more does less damage subject to dr, less possible attacks, and damage can be completely negate with a simple save. not a really a bomb of doom. It is an effective low level option for dealing with low level swarms for warrior classes. That is about it. It hardly a broken tactic. when you compare to something like a real bomb expert.
Kain, could you tell me what works and doesn't work with why? Deadly aim, point blank shot, weapon training, weapon enhancement, weapon specialization...
Personally it seems the intent is clear.... Its ment as a splash damage arrow.
Treat as a splash weapon with total range of one square
No benefit from str, dex, and other such bonuses. Full benefit from weapon enhancements
As I read it the burst is not 5ft radius but 5ft meaning one square. And in that square it deals 1d3 piercing damage.
Yeah... 5ft burst in AOE situations means a single square.
If it meant an intersection, it would be a 5ft. radius burst.
Other than that, because it's an arrow fired, all bonuses applicable to arrow/bow that you are using would apply. Single target Reflex save.
Mostly relevant to swarms, or oozes, since anything else will have a decent chance to negate the whole thing with a DC18 reflex save.
TGMAx has it correct, but because it is still an arrow fired from a bow, you can apply weapon training, STR damage, magical effects placed on bow ect. you can also rapid shot, many shot them. all normal bow effects apply. expect you only have to roll to hit the square the creature is in. after that is confirmed. targets gets easy save to negate all damage.
the only thing I would question working as GM is deadly aim, because how do you deadly aim an aoe? just like you can't deadly aim a touch attack, but this is not a touch attack, and it does fill all the requirements of the feat, is it a ranged attack, yes you fire an arrow from about targeting a square. Does it do hp damage yes it does. so RAW it works. Is it silly that it works yes. is it over power or game breaking not even close it is under powered if anything. because everything is negate through a low level save. So for pathfinder system it should work. is there any thing official on how it works no. you are going to see gms judge it differently from table to table.
blue_the_wolf wrote: Personally it seems the intent is clear.... Its ment as a splash damage arrow.
Treat as a splash weapon with total range of one square
No benefit from str, dex, and other such bonuses. Full benefit from weapon enhancements
by the rules it seems you get all the benefits from firing it from the bow, but it's confusing because it's unique.
Right now I'm persuaded that feats do apply, and that it targets a square.
TGMaxMaxer wrote: Yeah... 5ft burst in AOE situations means a single square.
If it meant an intersection, it would be a 5ft. radius burst.
Citation?
Let's look at Acid flask from Core.
Acid wrote: Acid: You can throw a flask of acid as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A direct hit deals 1d6 points of acid damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the acid hits takes 1 point of acid damage from the splash. No where does it say "5ft. radius burst", and yet that's exactly how it works if you target an intersection, which is what you can do with splash weapons. In fact, none of the splash weapons use the phrase "5ft. radius burst" and yet they all work that way if you target an intersection.
The authors are notorious for meaning the same thing while wording it differently. This happens even more when you have completely different authors writing the material. The Elves of Golarion was written by Paizo staff, the rules regarding splash/burst weapons were not.
In that book, there is also the Sparkfly arrow and it reads thus:
Sparkfly from Elves of Golarion wrote: When the arrow hits a target, it shatters the crystal and releases the insects.... Let's look at the Raining Arrow from the same book
Raining Arrow from EoG wrote: Raining Arrow: This thick-shafted arrow contains a reservoir of holy water and is designed to burst on impact, hitting the target and splashing nearby creatures as if you had thrown the vial. The Splintershot arrows explicitly states it bursts "when fired" not when it hits. However, since I'm not ware of any other weapon that has this quality, it's hardly clear whether you have to fire at a target or you can fire at an intersection.
It's probably reasonable to allow it both target a square and an intersection. The problem is that the difference is meaningful for splash weapons which do direct damage. Perhaps a compromise is that if you target a creature you get the normal damage bonuses and no splash. If you target an intersection, you get burst but no damage bonuses. The burst quality lets it work on swarms either way.
I don't know much about splash weapons, but you have the option I thought of an intersection, or a specific target in a specific space.
You are correct on targeting an intersection with a splash weapon. In that case it does the splash damage only to a 2x2 map section around the intersection.
The only damage listed in the original post was for the original 5ft burst area, with a reflex save.
Not having this particular splatbook, I don't have the full text, but based on the OP quoted section I don't see a splash damage entry, which is listed separately from all direct damage entries in every other instance. Since the Arrow in question doesn't have a splash damage entry, if you fire it at an intersection it seems it does nothing at all.
TGMaxMaxer wrote: The only damage listed in the original post was for the original 5ft burst area, with a reflex save. That's all the book says. There is no information on directly hitting something.
Quote: Not having this particular splatbook, I don't have the full text, but based on the OP quoted section I don't see a splash damage entry, which is listed separately from all direct damage entries in every other instance. Since the Arrow in question doesn't have a splash damage entry, if you fire it at an intersection it seems it does nothing at all. The OP pretty much gives it all.
Elves of Golarion p. 23 wrote: The shaft of this arrow is formed of numerous small bone fragments painstakingly glued together. When fired they tear themselves apart, forming a 5-foot burst of razor-sharp bones that deals 1d3 points of piercing damage (Reflex DC 18 negates). That's it. First, why talk about a 5ft burst of damage if you can only hit one target? There's no text about "filling a square with shards". Second, the only attack that gives a reflex save vs the damage are Splash weapons and that's ONLY on the splash damage. Nobody gets a Reflex save on a direct attack from a weapon.
Traps generally use reflex saves any time they can target more than one creature.
1.4+.6= 2
Look, I could be completely wrong. Maybe it only targets one creature and adds all the normal bonuses.
Like I said, from the text given, if that is all of it, it's a poorly written entry. It talks about being fired, but makes no mention of targeting normal AC, or targeting a square/intersection. Also, the enemy gets a reflex save to avoid damage, which doesn't make any sense if you had to roll to hit normal AC.
Also, absent any other language, it still counts as an arrow for the benefits/penalties of feats/abilities that affect weapon damage.
Now that I've described how I read what is actually RAW, this is what I would do at my table with the poorly written entry, and advise players who use it beforehand.
You target a single square AC 10, since it has no entry for splash damage it can't target an intersection. It doesn't benefit from any precision damage adds (being an AOE), but does benefit from weapon spec, enhancements, etc.
I could see an argument (at the most) for the idea that a 5ft burst would be possible in a 2x2 around an intersection instead, but not in a 3x3 at all (see also no splash damage entry for the surrounding squares).
TGMaxMaxer wrote: I could see an argument (at the most) for the idea that a 5ft burst would be possible in a 2x2 around an intersection instead, but not in a 3x3 at all (see also no splash damage entry for the surrounding squares).
Ah. Now, I see what you mean about "splash damage entry". I would agree with you. It should not work like a AF or Holy Water in that the eight squares around the target take splash damage.
I'm pointing to the splash damage rules as a basis for saying damage enhancements would not apply. For example, as far as I know, you don't get STR/Point Blank Shot/Favored Enemy damage on splash damage from a thrown weapon, only on the direct damage. Since the arrow doesn't do any direct damage (if you agree that a Reflex save counter-indicates a direct weapon attack), no enhancements to damage apply.
To put it another way, the arrow explodes into a mushroom of splinters. Those splinters hit everything in a 2x2 area. You resolve this by targeting an intersection. I would not think enhancement bonuses would apply, but I don't have any RAW to say definitively one way or the other.
FYI, targeting a square is AC 5 per RAW.
AC 5... wow. I never looked at it, and AC 10 is what almost every GM in this area runs.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
The only other interpretation of how this is supposed to work that I can come up with would be the radical one that the arrow indeed splinters when fired, but all the fragments travel individually to the targeted burst area. No targeting creature or intersections, no "to hit" roll at all, just a reflect save from any creatures in that target burst area. It's like a shotgun blast or a beehive round for an M203 or canister shot.
I'm not saying it's so, but is it a possibility ?
could anyone suggest a well written question that we can get faq'd?
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4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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I think this sums up pretty much all of the questions so far?
PDT:
The Splintercloud Arrow from Elves of Golarion as written is unclear as to its use.
Please clarify:
Does the 5ft burst area mean a 2x2 Grid around an intersection, a 3x3 area around a central square, or is it a single 5ft square?
Does it need to hit normal AC and then grant the target a save to avoid damage?
Does it just target AC 5 for the square/intersection like other non-magical Area weapons (i.e. splash weapons)?
Do they benefit from things like Weapon Enhancements, spells that enhance ammunition, and feats and abilities that would add damage to a arrow from a bow like Deadly Aim or Weapon Specialization effect the damage?
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