In my group I have an player who is a little frustrated about the damage output of his level 10 dwarven fighter.
I warned him that his build as he planned it would be not optimal regarding damage dealt, but on the first few levels it was no big deal.
But now he absolutely cannot compare to the damage that the smiting archerdin and the monk are doing.
His stats are sth. like this (before items):
STR 17
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 8
mag. equipment:
+2 fullplate, +2 heavy shield
adamantite giant bane +1 dwarven waraxe
amulet of natural armor +?
some other stuff
His feats include:
power attack
weapon focus
weapon spec.
improved crit.
steel soul
fortified armor training
...
What could he do to deal meaningful damage?
Take out the amulet of natural armor, take a Belt if Giant Strength +? instead. Take the feats shield bash, Two weapon fighting, Improved shield bash, Shield slam, Vital Strike. He should if he can, get boots of speed for the extra attack, +1 to attack rolls, ac and refex saves.
The waraxe doesn't need to be adamantine either.
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The waraxe doesn't need to be adamantine either.
Adamantine is pretty helpful, unless you have a +4 enhancement bonus on your weapon.
To the OP: in order to fully compete for damage (if that is his goal), he's going to have to drop the shield and go 2 handed on that axe. One way that he can do that is to get a shield with the Animated enhancement, so that when he drops it (as a move action), it will float at his side and continue to offer protection for 4 rounds. But note that it does cost a move action, so he will miss out on at least one full attack.
Other things that will help damage (one handed or two handed):
He can also try to obtain Gloves of Dueling, increasing his +2 attack/+2 damage bonuses form Weapon Training by an additional +2 (to +4/+4).
Feats: Greater Weapon Focus (available since level 8), Greater Weapon Specialization (at 12th), Furious Focus.
Pumping his STR and getting a belt of giant strength would certainly help, too -- espeicall if he decides to drop the shield.
Thanks four your advice.
I think he has greater WF, and also a belt of giant strength +2.
Furious focus came to our attention only recently, he will probably be getting this next.
TWF is not an option, because he does not want to invest in a belt of STR/DEX (he wants to rather upgrade just the STR) and his DEX is too low for the feat chain.
Gloves of dueling are an awesome idea! I think I will include them in the next biggest treasure they obtain.
They really will make adifference I guess.
I agree with Soberdwarf & Argus that a slight change in fighting style is necessary. Basically, if your player wants to put out more damage, he'll have to get both hands into the damage game, rather than using one purely for defense. With that in mind, he should pick either two-weapon fighting or two-handed fighting and adjust feats & gear appropriately. Fortunately, with his choice of the Dwarven Waraxe, his character will still look the same.
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Two-Weapon route:
- Bump DEX by 1-2 points via an item, re-stat, or whatever you're most comfortable with.
- Get a Belt of Giant Strength +2 or +4.
- Get a light shield with a shield spike.
- Switch to TWF Feats.
Two-Handed route:
- Get a Belt of Giant Strength +4.
- Get an Animated shield.
- Adjust feats to be slightly more aggressive.
Get an Animated shield.
I like this idea! I will suggest it to the player.
Is there a way to make a reasonable Sword and Board fighter that doesn't rely on using the shield as a second weapon, TWF etc?
There really should be. It's one of the most common sets of gear in history and fantasy and though shield bashing certainly was done, shields really were primarily defensive. There should be a way to make that work.
Even if it's a matter of much better defense at the cost of some DPR.
I've been curious about this, too. I know Saving Shield has seen much use on my cleric and I like it quite a bit.
Any Shield Fighter is defined by his flexibility to the situation.
1) If he only gets a single attack, he should go two handed, then fast equip his shield. This works best on a charge.
2) If the enemy has low ability to hit, he should stay two handed. If it hits hard and often, keep the shield up.
3) If it hits hard but has low AC, TWF with the shield for a bit of extra damage, but otherwise don't TWF, be consistent on hitting.
4) All fighters need to be mobile. I suggest getting him a pair of Boots of Striding/Speed to up his movement rate. I suspect a lot of the problem with damage is the archer is killing at range with full attacks, the monk is getting there first, and the dwarf is lagging behind.
5) throw non-evil monsters at the party with high AC, and the fighter will shine.
If he's getting outdamaged by a monk, it's because he's not hitting often enough and hard enough.
He should be power attacking pretty much all the time, and using Furious Focus. Hopefully he's got improved crit or a keen axe.
You don't need to go down to a buckler. Just have a quick-equip shield for slinging on when you need it.
And he definitely needs to get his strength up. A 10th level fighter should have a str of at least 20.
Another feat he might want to look at is Big Game Hunter. +1 TH, +2 dmg against everything size L or bigger is a pretty good feat.
Also, if he really wants to be a ranger hater of giants, taking one level of ranger could get him a free feat and +2/+2 against Giants. That can work out REALLY well. Also lets him use CLW wands.
A Shield build doesn't really take off until 15+ when you can afford to start putting Defender on it and really cranking your AC up. You also need Shield Mastery to be able to fight with it without penalty.
===Aelryinth
Well he is hasted an bull's strengthened in 80-90% of the fights.
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The thing here seems to be that this guy, build-wise, isn't a sword(or waraxe)-n-board Fighter. Apart from actually using a shield, he doesn't seem to have invested any Feats into shield-use... if that makes sense? A dedicated sword-n-board Fighter should go the whole TWF with weapon and shield bash route mentioned by several posters above - his damage comes from the number of attacks he gets (like any other TWF character, including his Monk friend).
Now, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the dwarf Fighter's build - just that he should probably rethink his tactics a little.
With his 17 Strength and +2 belt, using Power Attack as a level 10 Fighter, his basic damage difference between one- and two-handing his axe is +5 damage per hit, which isn't insignificant. Since all he's using his shield for is extra AC (and it sounds like the character has been played up from low-levels, correct?) then hopefully by now he'll have a good idea of which encounters he needs the AC for, and which he can do without it, and maximise his damage output. While there are some good suggestions above - using an animated shield, or using a quickdraw shield (and possibly the Quick Draw Feat as well) - an even simpler solution would be to just keep the shield slung most of the time, two-handing the waraxe, and bring it out when facing particularly dangerous opponents.
Without Two Weapon Fighting and/or Quick Draw a quickdraw shield isn't worth much (you can combine readying a shield with a regular move anyway if you have a BAB of +1 or more), and certainly not the -1 AC this guy would be facing (quickdraw shields are always light shields). An animated shield eats a +2 bonus for the privilege, which could be saving the guy's life when he was using the shield normally instead.
My advice would be for our dwarf to switch to carrying a tower shield - he's a Fighter, he has the Proficiency and may as well use it, and plenty of carrying capacity too. That way he just keeps the thing slung most of the time, but when the dangerous bad guys show up he can equip his tower shield, fight defensively, and bump his AC by 8 points (assuming a +2 tower shield to replace his +2 heavy shield) - 9 points if he has at least 3 ranks in Acrobatics. He also has the 'full cover' option the tower shield provides Vs ranged attacks, which can be a life-saver in some situations (such as when the bad guy archers are more than a dwarf's charge distance away...). Plus, a tower shield make a great improvised stretcher or sled or door... The key is, he's not planning on using it until he has to - Fighters are a versatile lot when it comes to weapons, armour, and shield selections: it's a stength of the class which shouldn't be ignored.
Personally I'd question the choice of the Fortified Armour Training Feat - negating criticals is nice and all, but at the cost of busting your own (in this case magical) gear? Improved Critical doesn't give as much of an advantage as it may appear at first, when you're using a weapon which only threatens on a 20 - a (roughly) 5% chance for an extra 2 damage rolls - so he may be better off looking for Feats which solidly up his damage (or provide some other bonus) every hit instead, especially when the keen magical weapon property is only +1 bonus-worth, and the two things don't stack (nor do any spell effects he can blag to make his weapon keen for the duration).
The Dazzling Display + Shatter Defenses heading into Deadly Stroke Feat chain may be something this guy could look at. It won't up his DPR, but it'll give him some battlefield control (and help out his allies too), and when he gets Deadly Stroke he'll be doing Con bleed damage, which generally more than makes up for a lesser damage output (remember that every point of Con damage the bad guy takes also inflicts his own Hit Dice worth of hit points damage, as well as lowering his Fortitude saves and other such nice effects - and Deadly Stroke inflicts Con bleed - the bad guy looses 1 Con per turn until he can take the time for a Heal check, or gets hit with a curative spell).
However, at the end of the day our dwarf is going to be hard-pressed matching a 10th level Monk's 4 attacks at 1d10 base damage with his own 2 attacks at 1d10 base, or a 10th level smiter's +10 damage per hit to smitable bad guys. There's a good chance he could blow their respective ACs out of the water, of course, and he can probably get close to the smiter's damage with his Weapon Training and those soon-to-be-acquired gloves of dueling, but without upping his attack rate he's going to have a hard time being the best damage-dealer.
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Oops - I meant to write that every two points of Con damage decreases your hit points, sorry. ;)
... I would argue against allowing a character ever carrying a tower shield and then equipping it. A tower shield is so large there is no slinging it on the back...
Well, any such added penalties to tower shield use are strickly in the realm of house rules; as far as RAW goes you can both equip a tower shield as fast as any other shield, and suffer no penalties for just carrying it (beyond it's weight). Historically many of the full-length shields the game would class as 'tower shields' were carried slung over a shoulder or the back, so I'd have a hard time disallowing fantasy heroes doing the same myself - but YMMV and house rules are house rules.
Shields would grant a massive AC bonus against archery. And the better armors in later periods got better and better at withstanding archery...archers were basically used to take out footmen with chain armor, or take down the horses...mounted men in heavy armor could only be stopped by a pike row. You can find examples of longbows and crossbows being used against plate from the 1500's and bouncing...until guns came along and rendered most armor unviable, heavy armor was really good.
Armor is considered damage mitigation in many games, shields are miss chances i.e. AC. From the standpoint of math, making it 50% less likely to be hit is the same as taking half damage.
The game doesn't really take into account the penalties of not having a shield well. Truly, the best defense is to kill the thing attacking you before it can do great harm to you.
High hit points, massive damage with TWF or THW weapon really undervalue the importance of having an AC bonus from a shield. There's plenty of math that shows the Sword and Board fighter can beat a THW fighter because of the +7 or higher AC bonus a Shield can grant...especially if you're putting Defender on it.
This argument becomes almost moot when you start using Animated Shields or Improved Buckler Defense. Sword and Board goes off in the corner to stay with the level 4 and under tactics there.
==Aelryinth
You can find examples of longbows and crossbows being used against plate from the 1500's and bouncing...until guns came along and rendered most armor unviable, heavy armor was really good.
Nitpick: Guns were around since the mid 1300s. Heavy cavalry (i. e. with breast plates, leg guards & helmets) was around till the early 1800s.
So, actually, heavy armour only fell out of style when advanced firearms became common, and the two technologies coexisted for at least 400 years.
Actually thats a big reason why I do not like the PF take on firearms (ranged touch attacks) at all.
Adamantine giant bane +1 dwarven waraxe.
Are your guys fighting a lot of giants? Saving up for a Adamantine +1 (flaming) or (corrosive) or (Vicious) or (Wounding) exc. Or just drop the dwarf alone in a giant camp and let him go to town. Bane is only good if you know that you are going to be fighting allot of the same monster type. (Like bane human in PFS). Not fighting giants the axe might as well be a good ole +1 axe.
Adamantine giant bane +1 dwarven waraxe.
Are your guys fighting a lot of giants? Saving up for a Adamantine +1 (flaming) or (corrosive) or (Vicious) or (Wounding) exc. Or just drop the dwarf alone in a giant camp and let him go to town. Bane is only good if you know that you are going to be fighting allot of the same monster type. (Like bane human in PFS). Not fighting giants the axe might as well be a good ole +1 axe.
Yes, the group is fighting giants constantly: ogres, hill giants, now stone giants. Sometime in the future they will upgrade to rune giants... ;)
Best use of a +1 you can get. Bane vs its enemy is the equivalent of a +4 enhancement.
Guns were around since 1300, sure, and cannon for longer. But archery was being used for that whole time period, too, because very few armies had guns. It wasn't until the Napoleon era, and mass equipping of armies with guns became commonplace, that armor truly fell out of favor.
And ranged touch attack = a bonus to hit, which is no different from having damage high enough to override the DR of heavy armor. Advanced firearms did more dmg then old muskets, sure enough, but would still ricochet with a glancing blow. It's just that they had enough power to smash right on through armor that armor became a hindrance rather then a benefit.
===Aelryinth
And if he's doing that, Big Game Hunter for +1/+2 is DEFINITELY a feat he should take.
==Aelryinth
Guns were around since 1300, sure, and cannon for longer. But archery was being used for that whole time period, too, because very few armies had guns. It wasn't until the Napoleon era, and mass equipping of armies with guns became commonplace, that armor truly fell out of favor.
Thats not entirely accurate. Guns (arqebuses) were common since ~1500. The hussites made extensives use of firearms even earlier.
I saw armor from the late 1600s that was dented (not penetrated) by musquet fire with my own eyes.
Back to the PF rules:
The notion that a full plate protects as little protection vs. a primitive firearm than bare skin is just ridiculous.
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ProfPots, you have some great points, but I would argue against allowing a character ever carrying a tower shield and then equipping it. A tower shield is so large there is no slinging it on the back. It has great banifits and the balance is not being able to stick it on the back or in a pack.
Dave
To don or stow a shield is always one move action. Your houserules are fine for your game, but we're giving advice for someone else's right now.
Maybe switch him to a two-handed great axe and take Shield of Swings? It gives him the option of +4 shield bonus to AC by dropping his weapon damage by half for the round. He would also get an extra 4000 gp from not needing the +2 shield, which can be used for other gear.
If he was going for an Uber AC build, I would re-consider his feats. Dodge, Ironhide, and Shield Focus all give a +1 to AC, and he can put +5 on armor and +1/fortification on the shield (or vice versa) at relatively early levels before making both +5.
But he wants damage. A couple ranger levels will help if he chooses Giant as his favored enemy. A couple barbarian levels will help with damage and mobility and hit points. If he does multiclass, I suggest dipping for 3 levels, so his Will Save doesn't plummet.
In 3.5, I played a multi-class dwarf fighter/ranger. It was a good combo of feats and skills, like Perception, Stealth, and Survival, which are always handy.