Gloves of Arrow Snaring - how do they work?

[Aesatchien]

I'm having a discussion with another player over the interpretation of the description of the Gloves of Arrow Snaring and I'd like help getting a consensus / ruling. You may think I'm an idiot for asking this but it's subtle.

The argument comes down to the following: 1) either the gloves flat out grant you the ability to catch arrows and optionally throw them back twice per day, or 2) they allow you to do this if you already have the Deflect Arrows feat and you are essentially buying only the ability to use the last feat in the Snatch Arrows chain twice per day.

Gloves of Arrow Snaring:

Gloves of Arrow Snaring

Aura faint abjuration; CL 3rd

Slot hands; Price 4,000 gp; Weight —
Description

Once worn, these snug gloves seem to meld with the hands, becoming almost invisible to casual observation. Twice per day, the wearer can act as if he had the Snatch Arrows feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for the feat. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective, and at least one hand must be free to take advantage of the magic.
Construction Requirements

Craft Wondrous Item, shield; Cost 2,000 gp

Snatch Arrows:

Snatch Arrows (Combat)

Instead of knocking an arrow or ranged attack aside, you can catch it in mid-flight.

Prerequisites: Dex 15, Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike.

Benefit: When using the Deflect Arrows feat you may choose to catch the weapon instead of just deflecting it. Thrown weapons can immediately be thrown back as an attack against the original attacker (even though it isn't your turn) or kept for later use.

You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat.

Initially it would seem obvious that you're meant to put them on and catch arrows twice per day regardless of dex and feat prereqs. But is that actually the case? Please play strict attention to RAW to help us on this, because the crux comes from Snatch Arrows explicitly saying that you can only catch ranged attacks when using the Deflect Arrows prerequisite feat. It appears that the critical decision is whether or not the gloves also grant Deflect Arrows (item text says you can use Snatch Arrows feat w/o the prereqs, not that you are treated as having the prereqs, which RAW should be two different things) or you must also have the Deflect Arrows feat to use this item. Is this a case similar to the specific overruling the general, as in an item description supersedes the feat description on a conflict?

I'd also appreciate it if you can reference any other items or rules where a feat in a chain is granted and you get the other feats as well.
Bonus - if a character with claws was wearing them, would they rip, or do all gloves work like Deliquescent Gloves in that they work over claws?

[SlimGauge]

Most magic items resize to accommodate the wearer of the correct size. I don't think they'd rip, but a GM might rule that your claws are unuseable while they are worn, much like your claws would become unusable if you were to wear gauntlets.

RAI, I'm sure the gloves are intended to let the wearer snatch arrows twice a day even if they don't have the Deflect Arrows feat.

RAW, you may have a point. However, see this thread for a similar discussion.

[Aesatchien]

SlimGauge wrote:

RAW, you may have a point. However, see this thread for a similar discussion.

Thanks for the link. That's definitely related to what I wanted to see.

SlimGauge wrote:

RAI, I'm sure the gloves are intended to let the wearer snatch arrows twice a day even if they don't have the Deflect Arrows feat.

I think 90% of players would just do that because that seems the most logical, unless you are applying the rules parsing precision common to games like Magic and that's where the hangup occurs.

It's actually coming up in our current campaign since we're about to take on some ogres, and being able to catch javelins twice per day seems like it will come in very handy.

[Blackbird71]

I'm also interested in this question, specifically as it applies to the Monk class.

The Monk is granted bonus feats at certain levels. Per the rules:

Quote:

A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

Snatch Arrows is available to the Monk as a bonus feat beginning at level 10. If a monk were to take this bonus feat, without having previously taken Deflect Arrows, what would happen?

The confusion seems to stem from the wording of Snatch Arrows. As I see it, there are two parts to this puzzle:

1) The prerequisite for the feat - Deflect Arrows is listed as a prerequisite to taking the Snatch Arrows feat. Well, the monk ability states that the prerequisites can be ignored for bonus feats (similar to the Gloves of Snaring), so this part is clear. The monk can write Snatch Arrows down as a feat on the character sheet without having Deflect Arrows. No problems there.

2) The function of the feat - this is where the issues start. The text of the Snatch Arrows feat specifically states that the ability provided by the feat (being able to catch a projectile mid-flight) triggers on use of the Deflect Arrows feat to stop an incoming projectile. If this is taken RAW, it seems to indicate that while you may have the Snatch Arrows feat, unless you are actually using the Deflect Arrows feat, Snatch Arrows will do nothing. If you never use the Deflect Arrows ability, Snatch Arrows' ability will never trigger, making it a useless feat.

The only conclusion I can draw based purely on the RAW is that while the monk does not need Deflect Arrows in order to take Snatch Arrows as a feat, he does need to use Deflect Arrows in order to use Snatch Arrows.

I will be the first one to admit that this seems a bit ridiculous for the monk, and even more so for the gloves. I've seen "intent" argued back and forth in various places, and I'll agree that the intent may very well have been for the gloves to allow anyone the use of Snatch Arrows with or without Deflect Arrows (I'm less certain on the intent of the monk bonus feats), but the strictest interpretation of the text seems to say otherwise.

The only satisfactory conclusion I can see to this discussion is an official ruling or errata on either the Snatch Arrows feat itself, or on how both the Gloves of Snaring and the Monk bonus feats work.

[LazarX]

The gloves are a specific exception to the way the Snatch Arrows feat works.

The gloves simply work as advertised. There's nothing in the description that says you need Deflect Arrows to make the magic work.

I would say that your claws are unusable when wearing the gloves. It's another example of life's little choices.

[Blackbird71]

LazarX wrote:

The gloves are a specific exception to the way the Snatch Arrows feat works.

The gloves simply work as advertised. There's nothing in the description that says you need Deflect Arrows to make the magic work.

Not according to the RAW.

The gloves description says that "the wearer can act as if he had the Snatch Arrows feat".

The Snatch Arrows feat says that "When using the Deflect Arrows feat you may choose to catch the weapon instead of just deflecting it."

Q: What does the Snatch Arrows feat do?

A: It lets you "choose to catch [a projectile] weapon instead of just deflecting it."

Q: When does the Snatch Arrows feat let you make this choice?

A: Only "When using the Deflect Arrows feat"

According to the text as written, neither the gloves, nor the monk's bonus feat ability, offer any exception to this functionality. Any such exception is implied by the reader's perception; nowhere is it explicitly stated. This is why official clarification is needed.

[Shar Tahl]

This is one of those situations where they really don't need to legalize the entire book. The are gloves of Arrow "Snaring". They let you catch things as the feat does. With your interpretation of the wording saying it doesn't let you do that strictly as written, then the gloves do nothing but make it look like you are not wearing gloves. It is obvious the intent was the have them catch arrows, so just let them catch arrows twice a day.

[Blackbird71]

Shar Tahl wrote:

This is one of those situations where they really don't need to legalize the entire book. The are gloves of Arrow "Snaring". They let you catch things as the feat does. With your interpretation of the wording saying it doesn't let you do that strictly as written, then the gloves do nothing but make it look like you are not wearing gloves. It is obvious the intent was the have them catch arrows, so just let them catch arrows twice a day.

And that may very well be the intent for the gloves, but it is still not what was written. Following the suspected intent is all fine and good for games around the kitchen table, but in any situation where RAW must be followed strictly (i.e., official events) would have to rule otherwise unless Paizo issues a clarification.

Plus, it still leaves the question open of how this works for the monk bonus feats? This part seems to be more of a gray area. Is the monk supposed to be able to snatch arrows by taking only one feat at a later level? Or is the intent that the monk first take Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat first?

The bottom line is that as players, we can speculate about intent all day long, but only Paizo can give a definitive answer on how these rules are truly supposed to function.