Human Fighter or Barb...maybe Unbreakable?

[GreatEscapist]

So I'm finally going to do something I've been putting off for a long time, roll a character for pathfinder who is actually a main character in something unrelated i'm working on.

She's stubborn, self destructive, angry, and responds to a lot of situations like a cornered animal. She's also fiercly protective and a perfectionist when it comes to her fighting. Spends all her time training, no fun allowed. Except broody binge drinking, of course. Her background is in piracy though and she tends to "see red" in battle.

So I'm looking at Fighter for obvious reasons, but there is a lot of Barb in her. I looked at Unbreakable fighter for the Endurance and Diehard bonus at level 1, but now I'm thinking it might break the rest of Fighter for what I'm looking for...And while I am more than willing to do a dip in one or the other, I'd rather not spread her too thin with too much Multiclassing. But I AM looking for features that bring in all elements, I'd love to see something piratey.

Would it be best to go with Barb and a 2 level fighter dip, or take the Viking fighter archetype for limited rage and spend all my bonus feats on the stuff I want? I could also do a Barb dip and choose the Drunken Brute archetype so I could extend my rage with alcohol, where I wouldn't be leveling it up.

Also is two weapon fighting a viable choice in this game? I know it takes a lot of feats, is there an obvious best choice for weapon?

Also, anyone know a good Prestige class she can work toward? Any general suggestions? I can put something together, but I want her to be so effective at so many things, I really want to choose things wisely.

Sorry for the vagueness of the request, just wanna see if any of her personality traits listed remind anyone of neat build stuff. Thanks in advance!

[XMorsX]

An optimised tanky build would be an Invulnerable rager barbarian that dips at 5th lvl in Unbreakable fighter just for 1 lvl in order to have easy access to the Stalwart feat tree. Just use a Two-handed weapon and go to town with a massive 20 DR/- at 20th lvl (or more) and the various ather great defensive bonuses that come from rage powers like Superstition, Strengh Surge, Flesh Wound and Eater of Magic and of course the signature power Come And Get Me.

A TWF build is inferior, but it can be done effectively if this is what you ask for. A Viking fighter would probably do it better than a barbarian because it is feat intensive. The best weapons to have would probably be a Heavy shield (primary) + Cestus (secondary), so you can have great accuracy with Shield Master, pumped up AC and still be able to two-hand grab the shield when you cannot full-attack for increased damage. Thunder and Fang is also a great and thematic alternative (Earthbreaker and Klar), mainly because with a FAQ it is ruled that two-handed weapons in conjuction with Power Attack deal damage 3:1 even when wielded with one-hand, provided you can use them like this.

[GreatEscapist]

So I've decided that I'm either going full blown Unbreakable Fighter with a 2 level dip in Barb (Drunken Brute) for Rage, 1 Rage Power, Uncanny Dodge, and the Drunken Brute Archetype means I can prolong rage as long as I'm drinking, which sounds great if I won't be leveling Barb beyond that.

OR I can go full Barb on her with a 1 level dip in fighter Unbreakable for those 2 feats I want. Though I might go 2 levels for the extra feat again and, would this...

"At 2nd level, an unbreakable gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 2nd level (to a maximum of +5 at 18th level)."

...only advance if I'm leveling Unbreakable? Or do the bonuses go up with any class leveled?

[XMorsX]

It advances with fighter lvls.

Dip two lvls of Wild rager. Deliberately fail your save vs Confusion when you are under attack so that you continue fighting without expending rage rounds. Also, you gain an extra attack.

Druken Brute is ineffective for continuing your rage, because drinking is a move action and you want to full-attack all the time. Your GM needs to houserule that you qualify for Fast Drinker in order to make the archetype effective. In this case, buy a tankard of endless ale. Even then, you need a hand empty for holding the tankard. Being a Tiefling with a Prehensile tail will solve this issue.

[GreatEscapist]

Thanks! I had looked at Wild Rager but the Drunken on suited the idea a little better. Never thought about the problems it would cause. The Wild Rager looks great too though :) -4 on AC for that extra attack is a little intimidating though Haha

I really appreciate the insight, I figured I was missing something.

[GreatEscapist]

Whoa! I didn't even see your other post! I thought I was posting an update to an empty thread.

I had actually looked at the Invulnerable Rager.

I guess it comes down to this, I want a lot of freedom for building as I go, I think a feat heavy character is what I'm looking for, which is why I'm leaning toward mostly Fighter with a dip in Barb for a little extra oomph. But I guess the question is whether Rage Powers do enough to make full Barb worth it over Fighter.

I guess not, really, since Rage Powers only work during Rage.

So, settling on Fighter with your help, should I be concerned at all about losing out on Weapon and Armor Training? Should I keep those and just spend fighter feats on Endurance and Diehard, losing out on the Unbreakable's Unflinching ability, or should I go full blown Unbreakable (which should help mitigate the Wild Rager's confusion problems) and use all my millions of fighter feats to make up for lack of Weapon and Armor training?

[XMorsX]

Genrally speaking, a 20th lvl barbarian is stronger than a 20th lvl fighter, if not in pure DPR then in many other aspects like survivability, utility, and unique nitches like COme and Get Me nad spell sunder builds.

However, feat-intensive builds like the TWFer is done better by fighters usually.

Both Weapon training and armor training is nice. That being said, there are many great archetypes that swap armor training. The same cannot be said for the weapon training. Most archetypes that swap weapon training are dip material only IMO. Unbreakable fighetr is definately there only for the one-lvl dip, if you go primary fighter you definately want another archetype.

What is your focus with this character more specifically? A raging two-hander? Something else?

[storyengine]

I love fighters but the archetypes are lackluster for your concept IMO. Straight fighter with a barbarian dip and Barbarian of the Society trait is a great build for this that also leaves your options open. Also power attack through greater overrun is a nice synergy build for setting up AoOs.

[GreatEscapist]

Storyengine I can see what you mean, this is my first time rolling a martial class aside from straight cavalier and I've always avoided fighter because it's too customizable without a good idea in mind. The archetypes seem awesome, but there is a lot to get your head around with them.

The best I can really describe the idea is by saying the unbreakable, mobile fighter, corsair and tactician all suit what I have in mind. She has anger problems and fights fiercely, but she is fine-tuned and well experienced so with the angry all out fighting style, I wanted to incorporate a lot of mobility and finesse. Hence the idea of only dipping for rage.

I think I'll probably go two hand weapon for sure though.

She's also quite the loner and doesn't trust anyone, which tarnishes the tactician idea (as much as I love swapping bravery for initiative and those extra skill points...), though it could be good reason to have her support and protect other party members in melee (doesn't think they can take care of themselves) unbreakable was just in the running because she's too stubborn to die. The corsair is super appropriate because her background is in piracy. But I wasn't sure if it was worth losing out on armor stuff.

Thanks for the help guys! Left to my own devices I'd have made a rrather ineffective fighter already.

[GreatEscapist]

Wow that barb of society trait is beautiful!

[XMorsX]

The corsair archetype forces you to use suboptimal weapons, so avoid it.

The best archetype to use is the two-handed fighter, with a two lvl dip in Wild Rager if you want rage. The weapon master arcehtype is also great, but in this case I would stay pire fighter for faster access to weapon training and the critical features.

Otherwise go Invulnerable Rager barbarian with a one lvl dip in Unbreakable barbarian. This is a much better defensively and just a bit behind offensively build than the Fighter one. It is more set in stone though, as there are specific rage powers you need to take in order to shine.

The Tactician archetype is not bad, but I feel that it is worse then an Order of the Dragon Honor Guard Cavalier for supporting your comrades. If this is what you wish, consider entering the Golden Legionnaire PrC at 6th lvl. Reflavor as appropriate.

[GreatEscapist]

If I understand correctly, the Corsair CAN choose Pirate Weapons but is not obligated to. You lose out on Armor Training in favor of acrobatics and swim checks, other than that you cleave without penalty which I think looks pretty sweet.

As for the 2 Handed Fighter, oddly enough, our two gms used the Power Attack rules they remembered from 3.5 (or something) and the 2-handed Fighter comes with a feature that's basically what they've been doing with power attack (we have a lot of barbs in our game so retconning it out would be devastating to 3 main characters' builds) so it's now a house rule. He did say he'd let me take something instead though.

I'm seeing a class feature on the cad that enables you to make certain Combat maneouvers automatically after a successful attack (when the opponent is denied his dex bonus). This sounds just perfect! I would be willing to change a lot of what I'm looking for to get that ability or better in some form. Can you think of anything off the top of your head? Or is this something that can come easily enough with feats?

(by the way, XMorsX, please don't feel obligated to keep helping me now that you've answered my plea! I know I keep flip flopping and I'm not easy to help haha)

She rolled like a bamf though, looking at either 18 str/18 dex/14 con or 18 str/16 dex/16 con =D

[XMorsX]

If it is so for corsair, it is viable and you can make good use of it.

Are you sure abut power attack? In 3.5, it gave 2:1 damage / penalty on two handed weapons, but you could take the penalty you wanted, up to your BAB. In PF, it is 3:1 the Power Attack damage / penalty, but the penalty is fixed according to your BAB. The two handed fighter lets you make the damage to penalty ratio 4:1. This is completely different than the 3.5 Power Attack. You could only obtain such ratio with the 10th vll ability of the Frenzied Brserker, Supreme power attack, although with the freedom to increase your attack roll penalty up to your BAB (combined with Shock Trooper it was devastating).

Cad is good if you use an improvised weapon along the catch off-guard feat when they are unarmed. if thsi is your thing then you can make a great PC. The problem with the improvised weapons is that they cannot be enchanted. Dipping one or two lvls of monk of the empty hand, you can treat normal weapon as imrpovised, so you can enchance them properly. You will also need the disamr combat maneuver in order to be able to utilise catch off-guard.

If you just want to use dirty tricks with a more standard build, play a Lore Warden with a two lvl dip in maneuver master monk. Lore Warden offers big bonuses to CMB and CMD and maneuver master lets you make a free maneuver with every full attack.

[GreatEscapist]

To be honest with you, I've never been less sure of Power Attack. I'm more or less resigned to just do what I'm told when I try to use it and not question.

I just discovered the Maneuver Master/Lore Warden thing by searching around the forum. But rather than starting to look at ANY other classes I'm just going to stick with what I've got going, 2 level Rager dip and one of the fighter archetypes. Probably Corsair since it makes the most story sense.

I can still use feats toward at least better combat maneuvers. I just have a tiger mount for my Cavalier and when it attacks it automatically grapples its target and holy hell is it ever badass, so I thought a PC tarpit like that would be beautiful, but then again Humans<Tigers for a reason. It's just too much to try and stuff into one PC anyway.

Thanks so much for all the clarity!

[XMorsX]

You are welcome!

If you do go Corsair, consider playing a dwarf, as they have access to the Goblin Cleaver feat tree and Cleave through, it will make your cleave feats much more useful. Also, consider delaying the barbarian dip because the cleave feats are most useful when taken early.

Steel Soul combined with the Glory of Old trait offers amazing saves vs spells and spell-like abilities.

So a dwarf corsair could start like this, focusing on cleaving with lunge, the racial feats, cleave through and finally dazing assault:

1 F Steel Soul, Power Attack
2 F Cleave
3 F Goblin Cleaver
4 F Orc Hewer
5 F Combat Reflexes
6 F Great Cleave
7 F Lunge
8 F Improved Critical (Dwarven Longhammer)
9 F Weapon Focus (Dwarven Longhammer)
10 F Greater Weapon Focus (Dwarven Longhammer)
11 F Cleave Through
12 F Dazing Assault
13 F Strike Back
14 F Giant Killer
15 F Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Longhammer)
16 F Gretaer Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Longhammer)
17 B Raging Vitality
18 B RP: Reckless Abandon
19 F Cleaving Finish
20 F Furious Focus

[GreatEscapist]

Unfortunately this is largely looking for mechanics that fit a concept vs vice versa. It's hopefully going to be a pretty loyal recreation of a book character so human is necessary.

But I do have a dwarf crafter cleric who just might run out of crafting feats next time he levels and uses a longhammer so that list you made will be looked at
again haha

[XMorsX]

GreatEscapist wrote:

Unfortunately this is largely looking for mechanics that fit a concept vs vice versa. It's hopefully going to be a pretty loyal recreation of a book character so human is necessary.

But I do have a dwarf crafter cleric who just might run out of crafting feats next time he levels and uses a longhammer so that list you made will be looked at
again haha

You can always take the racial heritage (dwarf) feat to qualify for dwarfen feats. If you go for a corsair, it is very much worth it.