Avoiding a TPK at Thistletop (spoilers)

[AbyssLord]

Tonight was the first session of our RotRL campaign.

Events:
Swallowtail Festival went just as advertised. Finished up all three goblin battles with two of the characters having halfway decent wounds before the end of it (Druid and Magus). Rogue and Dragonfire Adept were not touched the whole time, but the Rogue's trained guard dog went down in the last of the three battles before the Druid could stabilize him.

Party meandered around town for a while making sure there was no more action to be had while also accepting healing from Father Zantus.

They took Aldern Foxglove's invitation to meet him at the Rusty Dragon. At this point, Sheriff Belor Hemlock invited the new heroes to escort him to the desecrated vault. They complied.

They took down the skeletons, discovered the robes (and what the robes were), as well as finding that Father Tobyn's body was missing.

Here's where it went off the rails.

The Druid has a very high Survival check and he also has tracking. He began tracking Tsuto's steps out of the graveyard. The party had an incredible string of 26+ tracking result rolls in a row. No random encounters. It's horrendous how close Thistletop is to Sandpoint since it took very few tracking rolls to get them there.

They tracked Tsuto all the way to the doorstep of Thistletop. The Dragonfire Adept is also a modified Skinchanger (weredragon-kin (using werebat-kin as a template of sorts)) with the ability to shapechange into a tiny flying dragon form. He scouted out most of the outside of Thistletop and didn't find too much dangerous stuff there within his field of vision from his aerial recon position. Mostly a lot of goblins.

I gave them level two to start the next session. They're technically supposed to be level three pretty close to the start of Thistletop according to the advancement track.

The story is derailed. Nualia may never get the chance to sacrifice Father Tobyn to grow her demonic arm. Tsuto won't get the chance to return to Sandpoint to kidnap his sister. The player characters will likely not learn about what is below Sandpoint. Most importantly of all, I think the PCs are walking into a TPK on Thistletop.

Any ideas for fixing this? Nualia can be weakened a bit, since she hasn't received any of the blessing from Lamashtu due to the lack of sacrificing Father Tobyn. Not sure what else I can reasonably do to power it down a bit while also getting the storyline back on track so that the player characters visit the Glassworks in Sandpoint.

AbyssLord

[Kalshane]

This issue comes up a lot, and I think it would be solved by the AP stating it starts raining shortly after the goblin attack, drastically increasing the difficulty of tracking the goblins.

This won't help you, now, unfortunately.

When my party tried to track them, I first pointed out that it was night and the enemies they were pursuing could see in the dark. (I had the news of the crypt break-in happen as Hemlock was thanking the heroes for their assistance.) They decided to wait until morning. Then I had it rain over night, meaning the ground outside of town was a muddy mess. They managed to track the original goblins until they reached the road, at which point the tracks got mixed up with all the other goblins that had fled after the raid as well as the normal road traffic. They continued following what they thought was the original tracks and did find some goblins who had attacked a travelling merchant, let his cart on fire and were dancing around the corpse of his horse laughing.

The party engaged the goblins, only to be ambushed by Bruthazmus. Shalelu arrives and drives Bruthazmus off, while the PCs mop up the goblins. She then tells the PCs who she is, and that she has urgent news for Sandpoint, asking that they accompany her back to town. On the way she gives them the goblin tribe information.

This let the PCs feel like the accomplished something by tracking the goblins, allowed me to introduce Shalelu in a more dramatic fashion than the Sheriff simply telling them she's a deadly goblin hunter and get them back to town and back on the rails. :)

But again, this doesn't help you. I'm just relaying it in case someone with the a similar problem but hasn't gotten past the point of no return finds this thread.

As for your options, the easiest could be finding some way to scare them off/realize they're in over their heads. Either have Shalelu approach them and explain they shouldn't be there and insist on escorting them back to town or ambush them with Gogmurt or Bruthazmus, make sure they're aware they can flee. Then, if things get really bad, have Shalelu come to the rescue and haul their inexperienced butts back to town while she impresses on them that Thistletop is the strongest of the local goblin strongholds and it shouldn't be assaulted lightly.

Once you've got them back in town you can have the Sheriff ask them to keep an eye on things while he goes to Magnimar and you're back on track.

[Tangent101]

I'd use Shalelu in this situation as well. Have her make an appearance and warn them that there is an entire tribe of goblins there, including reinforcements from other tribes that raided Sandpoint and that she was going to head to Sandpoint to talk to Sheriff Hemlock about the situation. She could also suggest to them to wait a few days to see if some of the goblins leave so they won't be overwhelmed. You can also have her mention that there are easily fifty or more goblins in there.

Alternatively, you could have a group of goblins attack right now - perhaps some Birdcrunchers who are heading to Thistletop after the raid went badly for them. Describe it as over a dozen goblins... with more coming out of the woods toward them. Overwhelming numbers. And give them a couple rounds before they close, so they can retreat if they want to - in fact, be sure to state outright that the group could head into the wood to try and lose them if they wanted.

The problem becomes that after they take out Tsuto underneath Sandpoint, they might be hesitant to return to Thistletop.

[Latrecis]

Tangent and Kalshane are on the right track. Don't let them get anywhere near Thistletop itself - have them encounter a couple groups of 3-4 Birdcruncher stragglers and then a couple Thistletop goblins on goblin dogs. And if they don't catch a clue at that point, then a TPK appears to be what the doctor ordered! You can insert Shalelu at any point to save them.

Important safety tip: dice don't run the show, you do. And checks where the players gain information even with a failure should not be rolled by them. If they roll a 3, they know there might be tracks they didn't see, and it encourages them to try again or get someone else, all based on the meta-game outcome of seeing the die roll. All they should learn is "You don't find any tracks" or "You lost the trail." So the players shouldn't know they got 26+ on their survival check - you should be rolling those secretly. And since them trailing Tsuto is a bad idea at this point, in a stunning result even rolling a 20 doesn't help. "Yep, you can follow the tracks to the wall around the boneyard but you lose them in the rough terrain beyond."

I'd agree the AP leaves plenty of rope for DM's and players to hang themselves in the fuzzy, sandbox space between the goblin assault and the disappearance of Ameiko. Example: the write up of the Desecrated Vault suggests that encounter could happen the same evening as the initial attack which is an absolutely horrible idea (and I'm guessing part of the trouble here.) But speaking in its defense, while the AP provides DC's for finding tracks at the vault it provides no information about tracking them back to Thistletop suggesting at least through absence its not an expected outcome. And a complete reading of the AP clearly intimates the players should learn nothing of Thistletop until they find Tsuto's journal.

[RuyanVe]

I would've delayed the crypt break/its discovery by a day or two.

As my group was set on tracking the gobbos which escaped after the initial raid as well, I let them do so. They had difficulties once following the tracks on the Lost Coast Road. I also had it rain heavily and had them encounter a small caravan of merchants being attacked by goblins and the bugbear--this gave me the chance to introduce Shalelu, too (as I suggested elsewhere on these forums). They scattered/killed the gobbos and Bruthazmus beat a hasty retreat, followed by Shalelu. This left the (mostly good-aligned) PCs with the duty of escorting the caravan back to Sandpoint. Here I set other encounters into motion keeping them occupied until they reached a sufficient level for the catacombs and after that Thistletop.

Worked well for me and my group and the railroading was not too obvious.

Ruyan.

[slayer_of_gellcor]

I had the group run across Bruthazmus and a group of Bird Crunchers. They had Shalelu pinned down after she'd killed about a dozen of the little green terrors. She mentioned how weird it was that Bruthazmus and the Bird Crunchers were working together. She could also mention her mentor running into similar weirdness out East. The thing about world building is to describe things going on off screen while focusing on the PCs. At higher levels you can also describe another Helms Deep attack on Sandpoint while the PCs go after the big bad. Have the PCs give instructions and coordinate fortifications, but trusting Hemlock and some reinforcements from Magnimar to hold them back. You can even describe some of the named NPCs coming into the fight. Ven Vinder putting aside differences with the PCs to defend his home. The Sczarni, under the direction of Jubrayl being conscripted as scouts. The brothel serving as a secondary medic tent.

With the PCs: show, don't tell.
With NPCs: tell, don't show.

[Tangent101]

My group went the traditional path... but made the mistake of letting Ripnugget live (unconscious) after the goblin warchanter negotiated a cessation of hostilities. They then captured Nualia and Lyrie (having previously taken Tsuto alive) and brought them to Sandpoint's jail before returning to Thistletop to clear out the rest of the place... and found it devoid of goblins.

While they dealt with Mal and the crab, the remaining goblins (including the Birdlickers in the hedgemaze which they'd not come across) launched a raid on Sandpoint. The PCs returned in time to see Hemlock decapitate Ripnugget in combat before being felled by the goblin warchanter's arrow... who was in turn taken out by a guard. A Selective Channel Positive Energy by the PC cleric saved a few human lives including Hemlock's.

Thus things have continued while the PCs were busy elsewhere. And other people have been big bad heroes in doing so. :)

[W Canepa]

I just had Tsuto (and a couple goblins) flee the raid via boat. The PCs found tracks leading to the beach, and evidence of a launched row boat, but no overland tracks to Thistletop. Simple fix.

[S'mon]

Apart from the railroad/derail issue - when I played Thistletop I found it very lethal even at the 'right' time. We had to retreat/run away twice - once vs Ripnugget, the second vs Nualia. Especially with Ripnugget, he and his guards are ridiculously lethal compared to the regular goblins, and we were completely unprepared for that. I would actually suggest toning down the stats on the goblin guards so they're not so superheroic compared to the normal goblins.

[el cuervo]

S'mon wrote:

Apart from the railroad/derail issue - when I played Thistletop I found it very lethal even at the 'right' time. We had to retreat/run away twice - once vs Ripnugget, the second vs Nualia. Especially with Ripnugget, he and his guards are ridiculously lethal compared to the regular goblins, and we were completely unprepared for that. I would actually suggest toning down the stats on the goblin guards so they're not so superheroic compared to the normal goblins.

It really depends on your group. My PCs steam-rolled the goblin commandos and Ripnugget.