I'm wondering if there's really any need to differentiate extraordinary and supernatural abilities in Pathfinder. Aside from the fact that one works in an Anti-Magic Field and the other doesn't, are there really any appreciable, every-day differences between them in published Paizo material? It's just confusing at times because, technically, the former usually encompasses some form of non-codified magic (aka spells), according to the CRB. If we accept that, then how does the effect of the ninja trick Pressure Points show up under a Detect Magic? What do you see through Arcane Sight when a barbarian Spell Sunders something? Do they even show up at all?
SU abilities don't provoke attacks of opportunity and are not subject to spell resistance.
SU abilities don't provoke attacks of opportunity and are not subject to spell resistance.
Pretty much this. The difference between (Ex) and (Su) is very fine and arguably nonexistent, but insofar as the community likes declaring them separate, that's the important part. (Su) abilities can be detected (and have 'caster levels') by magic, and (Ex) abilities cannot.
SU abilities don't provoke attacks of opportunity and are not subject to spell resistance.
As I understand it, it's the same for EX abilities. Some SU abilities provoke AOs in the same way as some EX ones do. Granted, none come to mind, but then that's what this thread was for, finding out what I'm missing.
SU abilities don't provoke attacks of opportunity and are not subject to spell resistance.As I understand it, it's the same for EX abilities. Some SU abilities provoke AOs in the same way as some EX ones do. Granted, none come to mind, but then that's what this thread was for, finding out what I'm missing.
It's honestly mostly a flavor differentiation. The easiest way to think of it is this - in theory, anyone can learn an (Ex) ability through sufficient application of training and dedication (except the ones inherent in physical forms, of course, like claws and the like).
(Su) abilities may be unlocked through training, but may also require some manner of inherent ability that means training alone won't let you utilize them.
This is essentially 100% of the functional difference. If the two categories were the same you wouldn't see much change at your average table.
SU abilities don't provoke attacks of opportunity and are not subject to spell resistance.As I understand it, it's the same for EX abilities. Some SU abilities provoke AOs in the same way as some EX ones do. Granted, none come to mind, but then that's what this thread was for, finding out what I'm missing.It's honestly mostly a flavor differentiation. The easiest way to think of it is this - in theory, anyone can learn an (Ex) ability through sufficient application of training and dedication (except the ones inherent in physical forms, of course, like claws and the like).
(Su) abilities may be unlocked through training, but may also require some manner of inherent ability that means training alone won't let you utilize them.
This is essentially 100% of the functional difference. If the two categories were the same you wouldn't see much change at your average table.
See, I can kinda get behind that explanation, but then the Pressure Points example I listed earlier kinda flies in the face of said reasoning. Rogues, a nearly 100% mundane class, have the ability to take that via the Ninja Trick talent, even though the rogues might not have any mental stats in double digits and be completely lacking a Ki pool. Heck, if they DID have the ki pool talent, that's actually listed as being axtraordinary. What, then, defines this "inherent ability" that is required for a supernatural ability to be unlocked? There are, after all, examples of monsters have extraordinary abilities that can't be replicated via training, they simply have them as an inherent part of their being.
See, I can kinda get behind that explanation, but then the Pressure Points example I listed earlier kinda flies in the face of said reasoning. Rogues, a nearly 100% mundane class, have the ability to take that via the Ninja Trick talent, even though the rogues might not have any mental stats in double digits and be completely lacking a Ki pool. Heck, if they DID have the ki pool talent, that's actually listed as being axtraordinary. What, then, defines this "inherent ability" that is required for a supernatural ability to be unlocked? There are, after all, examples of monsters have extraordinary abilities that can't be replicated via training, they simply have them as an inherent part of their being.SU abilities don't provoke attacks of opportunity and are not subject to spell resistance.As I understand it, it's the same for EX abilities. Some SU abilities provoke AOs in the same way as some EX ones do. Granted, none come to mind, but then that's what this thread was for, finding out what I'm missing.It's honestly mostly a flavor differentiation. The easiest way to think of it is this - in theory, anyone can learn an (Ex) ability through sufficient application of training and dedication (except the ones inherent in physical forms, of course, like claws and the like).
(Su) abilities may be unlocked through training, but may also require some manner of inherent ability that means training alone won't let you utilize them.
This is essentially 100% of the functional difference. If the two categories were the same you wouldn't see much change at your average table.
'ey, I'm not defending it. The line between (Ex) and (Su) is a ball that WotC dropped and that Paizo never picked back up. That's just the definition I've found that covers most of the cases.
Some of the (Su) ninja tricks, like pressure points, could've been classed as (Ex). And rogues can pick up, among other things, a ki pool and spell-like powers from their rogue talents, so it's not they're completely shut out of picking up supernatural powers.
Hell, some of the rogue (Ex) talents, like Hide in Plain Sight, would probably make more sense as (Su).
(Ex) usually means physics is bending over backwards due to extreme training (ex. evasion) or funky biology (ex. regeneration).
(Su) means the process is inherently magical (ex. breath weapon).
Damage reduction can actually overlap the two - a lich's DR of bludgeoning (because it's a super skellie) and holy (because it's a walking blasphemy) is a pretty good example of DR with both properties.
As already noted, the only mechanical difference between the two is that one turns off in an anti-magic field and the other doesn't. As the Prince noted, it's a piece of 3.X legacy weirdness that Paizo's held onto out of an abundance of caution.
If you're writing monsters for yourself, you really don't need to pay that much attention to the two.
Unless you're setting an adventure in the magic-dead half of Alkenstar, in which case you need to be paying attention!
It has power ceiling implications. No spell-like effect will breach 9th level. Supernatural abilities can and can do very weird/specific things. Spell-likes always act like spells and have all the same restrictions except components. Supernatural abilities have no inherent restrictions.
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This is an interesting question. You're right that there are very few differences - but they are perhaps important ones.
Supernatural...
Close but not the same.
This is an interesting question. You're right that there are very few differences - but they are perhaps important ones.
Supernatural...
Don't work in an antimagic field - pretty rare, but when it matters wizards are very happy that dragon breath weapons are (Su).
Are detectable with detect magic - you can detect a Quivering Palm effect on your cohort/follower (being forced to betray you). You can tell when a Monk is burning Ki to make that many attacks.
Can't be dispelled, but often are subject to remove curse or at least break enchantment. Close but not the same.
That last one is interesting. Do you have any examples of such? It doesn't seem like Break Enchantment would work on the witch's Forced Reincarnation hex, for example, but maybe I'm wrong about that.
Huh. Break enchantment caps at 5th level or lower effects [edit: that can't be fixed by dispel magic or stone to flesh], and Forced Reincarnation is arguably a 9th level effect (since it's a Grand Hex).
Mythic break enchantment, on the other hand, caps out at 10th level effects (5 + 1/2 tier).
Mythic break enchantment could actually fix a Forced Reincarnation.
A huldra's manipulate luck (Su) ability is called out as a curse effect. That'd been an example of a supernatural effect that can be cleared with a remove curse or break enchantment.
Medusa and basilisk petrification are other examples.
Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)
Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.
These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field.
Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted
Supernatural Abilities (Su)
Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is:
10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).
* Basically not a whole lot but they default to no action or a standard action respectively, and the magic interaction thing can be important as well and if you create your own abilities it might help to tie it to a certain ability, i.e. magical abilities default to charisma not intelligence.
Huh. Break enchantment caps at 5th level or lower effects [edit: that can't be fixed by dispel magic or stone to flesh], and Forced Reincarnation is arguably a 9th level effect (since it's a Grand Hex).
Mythic break enchantment, on the other hand, caps out at 10th level effects (5 + 1/2 tier).
Mythic break enchantment could actually fix a Forced Reincarnation.
A huldra's manipulate luck (Su) ability is called out as a curse effect. That'd been an example of a supernatural effect that can be cleared with a remove curse or break enchantment.
Medusa and basilisk petrification are other examples.
Exactly how would break enchantment counter a forced reincarnation?
Reincarnation is a transmutation affect which break enchantment does work against. RAW says it is an opposed caster level check, but SU's don't have caster levels. I think most GM's would just assume it was intended to work anyway. For a monster such they might use the HD of creature as the effective caster level, but by the rules(RAW) it seems that break enchantment is not going to work.
The mythic version is said to work against non-mythic effects without a caster level check though.
But what's the reverse? Your body has been slain and you've been stuffed into a new body. Does the new body die? What if the old body doesn't exist now? Does it become a cheap true resurrection?
But what's the reverse? Your body has been slain and you've been stuffed into a new body. Does the new body die? What if the old body doesn't exist now? Does it become a cheap true resurrection?
The spell kills you and gives you a new body by force. You should be alive in your new body. The reincarnate spells actually creates a new body for and so would this ability. Your old body will still be in existence, and True Res brings you back if your old body is not around. This ability has to kill you itself so you must at least be around and alive for it to work on you.