Ok I understand the new magazine had to be smaller but am I the only one that left this last adventure on my nightstand feeling a little cheated? The giants are fun,the dragons are cool but whole swathes of the adventure are left to me to develop with just a simple reference .Achaime isn't even detailed and the treasure is just " amassed by several generations of giant kings"...lol...what?
Another bone I like to pick at. Where is that high level play feel? Where are the giants defenses against invisibility and etheral travel? High level players love this stuff .Carrion crawler heads???? Dragon's are immune to paralysis...no?The Ominious Fabler would get picked off in seconds. A paladin could detect evil, a rogue at that level will see right through him.A ring of chameleon power for disguising an undead? This is supposed to be high level play for gods sake.The Storm Lord's Keep by James Wyatt was much better in my opinion.I couldn't use this adventure without putting in a huge investment in development and fleshing out of the giants. My players would slap this adventure down!
The story was fun I but I would hate to see this magazine go the route of giving adventure outlines instead of useable content.Please don't tell me your gonna flesh it out when you sell it in book form...please.That would nail this coffin shut.
Creative Director
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If we detailed every encounter area in Kongen-Thulnir, the magazine would have needed to be twice as long. It's unfortunate but true. The adventure we pretty much had to stick exactly to the parts of the city that were directly tied to the "Get Dragotha's Phylactery" plot.
Plus, a lot of DMs out there (myself included) really enjoy being able to put their own personal touches on adventures. The tradition of leaving parts of an adventuring site undetaild or open for the DM to develop is as old as D&D itself.
As for the high-level play feel... it's there! Just look at the types of monsters you fight! The tone of this adventure is essentially a smash-and-grab; the PCs wade in to the site, find out where they need to go, and get the phylactery. Exploration isn't the point, and neither is it supposed to be a mystery.
One of my philosophies regarding high-level adventures is that it's good now and then to let the players FEEL high level. If every encounter is designed to test them to their limits, to deny them the use of their tricks, and to make them feel that they can only barely survive, then what's the point of becoming high level in the first place? You can get this same experience at low-level, and not have to wrestle with complex game mechanics to boot since the game runs more smoothly at low levels.
That said, Kongen-Thulnir is INTENDED to let PCs use spells like true seeing, etherealness, and stuff like that to solve situations. Isn't it more satisfying for a PC to have his character learn about something like the disguised undead spy BEFORE he can betray the party? Isn't it better for the game that you are able to effectively use etherealness once you're high enough level to cast it, rather than being told, effectively, "Congratulations on reaching this experience level and gaining these new tricks, but all the dungeons you're going on now render them irrelevent!" That might be fun for the DM, but it's certainly no fun for the players.
Basically... don't be afraid if the PCs get to beat up the opposition with ease now and then. It's not really high-level play if the PCs don't FEEL high-level. It's just low-level play with a lot more math.
(Oh, and I address the crawler loads in another thread. The Short Version: Crawler Loads are defenses against non-dragons. Against dragons, the giants use guylines and harpoons.)
Well there is nothing like getting an answer from the guy involved in making it. I always add a personal touch to any adventure I use from Dungeon Magazine first off; my complaint is that a structure as large and possibly game altering as the main palace should get more than a two sentence write up. I completely understand letting players "feel" high level and I don't believe I said anything to make you think I was looking for a checkmate game. Intelligent high level monsters especially with a 16th level sorcerer among them shouldn't be played as dumb though. At the very least post some guard dogs or a few alarm spells if you want a walk through, then the players get a feel that they can't autopilot the thing.
Simply put, I feel this adventure wasn't up to your magazine’s standards. Disguising an undead would be tough granted but he is a CR 20 challenge . If the first level Paladin can spot him this spriggan is either worshipping the god of luck or you guys simply didn't do your homework! Finding the spy should take a little effort or attaining high level means about as much as doing it on an online game. Just be persistent and any dummy can pull it off. The players expect a challenge especially from someone trying to trick them right? An ogre in a dress may cut it at first level but come on. If a detect evil found my master spy my players would ride me for the next ten years and rightly so. I find that people that have attained high level want to be challenged and the "complex" game mechanics are part of that. Wizards has published enough books now that complex is now D&D’s middle name. Basic counter measures give a campaign a sense of reality and a black pudding in a shattering container makes more sense than a substance that has no effect on a dragon...a rock would be better for a bastion of dragon slaying.
You didn't comment on the upcoming book detailing this out though...that scares me.
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Creative Director
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Keep in mind two things:
1: If the paladin's player doesn't say he's detecting evil, he's not detecting evil.
2: The PCs, by this point, may be used to working with evil creatures (especially after playing "Prince of Redhand.")
Sometimes the simplest plans works. Sometimes not. If you want to make the Ominious Fabler harder to find out in your campaign, feel free to do so. My suggestion would be to give him the ever-popular ring of mind shielding... presto—immune to alignment detection. Or alternately, you can ditch the entire spy element and simply have the Fabler be a pest who hounds the PCs every step of the way, providing aid to their enemies and taking pot shots at them when their guard is down.
Likewise, if you feel that having the denizens of the Riftlord Palace not interact in the adventure at all hurts the adventure, feel free to just remove area P from the adventure. Brazzemal and his allies could have destroyed it using a scroll of earthquake, or just a few hours of constant dragon breath. Switching the gelatnous cube to an advanced black pudding is a good way to make that encounter more dangerous to dragons as well.
In any case, sorry you didn't feel this adventure was up to our standards. They can't all be winners to everyone every time, though. If you're concerned that this adventure's too easy, I think you'll be pleased with what awaits the PCs in "Into the Wormcrawl Fissure" and "Dawn of a New Age," though.
As for comments on filling things out in an "upcoming book," there's really nothing to say, for two reasons.
1: We'd love to do an Age of Worms hardcover, but we can't do anything until we get WotC approval for such a project.
2: Expandig Kongen-Thulnir's encounter areas (and in particular, the Riftlord Palace) is a natural place to expand the adventure, but if we DO choose to do this, we'll have to pay someone to write that material or (alternately) write it ourself. We didn't cut any maps or encounter areas from the adventure, is what I'm saying; all that exists on the Riftlord's Palace is what you get in the issue itself.
James wrote:
"One of my philosophies regarding high-level adventures is that it's good now and then to let the players FEEL high level. If every encounter is designed to test them to their limits, to deny them the use of their tricks, and to make them feel that they can only barely survive, then what's the point of becoming high level in the first place?
Isn't it better for the game that you are able to effectively use etherealness once you're high enough level to cast it, rather than being told, effectively, "Congratulations on reaching this experience level and gaining these new tricks, but all the dungeons you're going on now render them irrelevent!" That might be fun for the DM, but it's certainly no fun for the players."
Man, preach it. I had a DM that spent most of his time taking things away from us. I was a 20th+ cleric, and what did I get? "Sorry, gate doesn't work. Oh yeah, and neither does teleport, or plane shift (unless you go to another plane, then cast another plane shift, and then you come back someplace within 500 miles of where you want to be)."
And the monsters? all way powerful, no easy meat. I want to feel powerful, now and then, please.