Raven Skill Rank?

[Dispari Scuro]

Making a character who has a raven familiar... and I can't figure out where their skill rank is spent. Raven has 15 dex and 15 wis with 1 HD. It also has two feats -- weapon finesse and skill focus (perception). Not sure why it has two feats; maybe ravens get a bonus feat, but it doesn't say that anywhere.

Anyway, its skills are listed as Fly +6 and Perception +6. Seems to be pretty messed up in the book, because it even says perception is +3 at the bottom, but +6 at the top. My question is, how did it get these numbers and where did it spend its skill rank?

Fly: It's tiny (+4) and has average flight (+0), and dex is +2. So it has +6 there.

Perception: It has skill focus (+3) and wis is +2. So it should be +5.

So the possibilities are:

A) Its rank is in fly, and they forgot the size bonus (so it should be +10), but perception is still wrong.

B) Its rank is in perception, and they forgot perception is a class skill, so it should be +9.

C) Its rank is in perception, and they forgot or it's not supposed to have skill focus (perception).

[Drachasor]

Perception and Fly are both class skills too. So one rank gives it a +4 bonus.

I say it is in perception and they do not have Skill Focus.

That gives +6 and +6 to both skills.

Unless Odin is cheating Ravens only get one Feat.

[minoritarian]

I was under the impression that animals with higher dex than strength were given weapon finesse as a bonus feat but I'm at work and afb.

[minoritarian]

And in my herolab the skill rank is in appraise. Which isn't on the srd but makes sense as they grant a bonus to appraise. And for spotting the tastiest eyes to eat.

[Drachasor]

Animals no longer get weapon finesse for free.

[Captain Zoom]

I think the skill rank is in Perception and they forgot to add the +3 from Skill Focus.

Assuming NO ranks in Fly, the Fly is correct: +2 Dex, +0 Average Natural Flyer, +4 Tiny Natural Flyer = +6 bonus to Fly

Perception with 1 rank is: +1 rank, +2 WIS, +3 Trained = +6 bonus, +9 with Skill Focus.

I notice they give lots of very small animals Weapon Finesse for free. In some cases, they don't even list Weapon Finesse and just have them use DEX to hit. In others, they list the Weapon Finesse.

[Hawktitan]

minoritarian wrote:

I was under the impression that animals with higher dex than strength were given weapon finesse as a bonus feat but I'm at work and afb.

It has to do with size, creatures of a certain size (tiny I think?) Get the benefits of weapon finesse.

[Sarrah]

Skills for animals is listed under animal companion. Animals get 2 + int skill ranks per level. This raven is a level 1 with a 2-4 (minimum 1) skill rank, thus getting 1 skill rank. This raven put it's point into perception. Sadly, the internet site you were looking on said it has skill focus (perception). The raven does not have this feat, because perception is a class skill - granting a +3 class skill bonus when the raven puts its rank into perception. (1 skill rank + 2 wisdom + 3 class skill bonus): +6

[Dispari Scuro]

Sarrah wrote:

Sadly, the internet site you were looking on said it has skill focus (perception). The raven does not have this feat

They're from Bestiary 1, which I have. That book says they have both feats.

[Quandary]

Sarrah wrote:

Sadly, the internet site you were looking on said it has skill focus (perception).

Well, that's what Paizo's official PRD says.

If that doesn't match the printed book, they should fix it. (don't have it on hand at the moment)
Without comparing it to the actual book, there's no way to know what is the problem: the Feats or the numbers.
(the numbers are a problem either way, because it gives different numbers for Perception in the Skill section vs. in the Senses section)

Tiny creatures don't automatically get Weapon Finesse for free, although you usually always see them with it, having 'paid for it'.
They do get to use DEX for CMB if that is higher than STR.
Unfortunately some Tiny creatures ALSO have Agile Maneuvers which does the exact same thing as what they get for free, wasting a Feat.
(for example, see Twigjack and Lyrakien)

[Quandary]

Dispari Scuro wrote:

Sarrah wrote:

Sadly, the internet site you were looking on said it has skill focus (perception). The raven does not have this feat

They're from Bestiary 1, which I have. That book says they have both feats.

Right, so it's a problem with the printed product, and the PRD won't change until they Errata the printed product.

Ignoring the RAW of the Bestiary entry, I would remove Skill Focus and keep Weapon Finesse and build legally around that,
because basically all Tiny creatures who have DEX>STR all have Weapon Finesse*. It's plausible it's meant to have a Bonus Feat and that just isn't marked (in addition to the other errors w/ numbers), but I don't really see why it deserves that, it's fully on par with the other animal familiars without that.
A point in Perception then makes sense.

*I checked some of the other base Familiars, which all follow the pattern for Weapon Finesse, except for Toad, which has no attack form, and thus doesn't have Weapon Finesse. It's skill numbers seem off: either it's Stealth should be 3 higher and it's Perception should be 3 lower (if 1 rank goes to Stealth), or Perception should be 1 higher and Stealth 1 lower (if 1 rank goes to Perception). Both Perception and Stealth are Class Skills for Animals.

[Dispari Scuro]

It seems most logical (and general consensus) that their rank is in perception. So I guess the question is between whether their perception should be +6 (and remove skill focus) or +9. I guess at this point it would just be a GM call, but it does answer my question as to where they spent their skill rank.

[Ravingdork]

If it's your familiar, just put the rank wherever you want and figure out the math accordingly.

You did choose the raven familiar best suited to you after all, right?

[Dispari Scuro]

Ravingdork wrote:

If it's your familiar, just put the rank wherever you want and figure out the math accordingly.

You did choose the raven familiar best suited to you after all, right?

I suppose. It's just a matter of figuring out if they get another +3 to perception or not, which I suppose I'll just ask the GM. The rank did matter though, because I have no ranks in either of those skills. I picked raven because I took inspiration from a picture of a samurai with a raven on her shoulder!