Well one of the biggest reasons is that you can wear armor. Typical Dragon Disciples typically have a tough time with armor outside of Form of the Dragon.
Yeah, most of the times I've heard of scaled disciple, it's in conjunction with "racial heritage". Good for them humans, not so much for kobolds.
Makes for a very fluffy kobald oracle, or a very effective human or Aasimar w/ racial heritage. (A small Aasimar w/ racial heritage can easily be fluffed as a kobald-descended Aasimar)
Bloodrager is going to be so much better for this.
If you're already a Kobold, Scaled Disciple and Inquisitor and DD is a pretty good way to be a higher STR melee badass with spells.
I.e. even if you aren't as strong as an Orc with the same build, you will be stronger and do more damage than other Kobolds.
If you're already a Kobold, then it's a decent build to consider.
You are probably best off buying STR to a 10 (i.e. buy 14) to start
(before class and equipment and level buffs)
just to wear armor/gear, not to mention damage and CMD, but otherwise focusing on a high DEX.
You should gain Domain Spell Slots just because of how Domains are written, the 1st level Domain ability says you gain bonus slots based on Spell Levels you have.
By RAW, Oracle Mystery Bonus Spells Known would also be advanced by DD (or other Caster PrCs), but Paizo issued a FAQ saying that +1 Casting PrCs DO NOT advance Spells Known outside of the "Spells" Class Feature (which does include Oracles' free Cure/Inflict spells), although they didn't actually address the RAW (which clearly doesn't refer to any specific Class Features such as "Spells") in justifying their FAQ. Domains are separate from that FAQ ruling because of their specific wording (see above).
I have no idea why Paizo's FAQ went against the RAW when Domain Slots (and Wizard School Slots) continue to scale with PrCs since they auto-scale with Spell Level.
The RAW must be violated to screw Spontaneous Casters? I guess that's the intent.
The feat was designed for Kobold Oracles. It allows for a kobold Dragon Disciple based on the oracle which has various advantages over the Sorcerer (improved BAB, more self buff spells, armor, better hit dice (D8 over D6). It makes a MUCH more powerful kobold dragon disciple, which makes sense for a dragon obsessed race. It also makes a pretty nice Inquisitor DD, although that was not the primary intent.
I know this because I designed it. I consider it FAR from useless. It is a powerful feat for kobold dragon disciples in itself but combined with Small But Deadly it allows for a useful kobold melee DD. It does not make kobold melee DDs as powerful as other, stronger races. Of course it doesnt, and it remains a balanced feat when being abused with racial heritage (so much cheese).
I wrote a lot of Kobolds of Golarion and when writing the crunch stuff as a huge fan of kobolds I was focused on helping to mitigate some of their weaknesses to make kobold characters fun to play in a balanced party. What I was NOT doing was trying to find ways to make kobolds overpowered. They are one of the weakest races in Golarion, unfortunately, and they are meant to be that way.
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The feat was designed for Kobold Oracles. It allows for a kobold Dragon Disciple based on the oracle which has various advantages over the Sorcerer (improved BAB, more self buff spells, armor, better hit dice (D8 over D6). It makes a MUCH more powerful kobold dragon disciple, which makes sense for a dragon obsessed race. It also makes a pretty nice Inquisitor DD, although that was not the primary intent.
I know this because I designed it. I consider it FAR from useless. It is a powerful feat for kobold dragon disciples in itself but combined with Small But Deadly it allows for a useful kobold melee DD. It does not make kobold melee DDs as powerful as other, stronger races. Of course it doesnt, and it remains a balanced feat when being abused with racial heritage (so much cheese).
I wrote a lot of Kobolds of Golarion and when writing the crunch stuff as a huge fan of kobolds I was focused on helping to mitigate some of their weaknesses to make kobold characters fun to play in a balanced party. What I was NOT doing was trying to find ways to make kobolds overpowered. They are one of the weakest races in Golarion, unfortunately, and they are meant to be that way.
Thanks Tork. Nice to see you are still involved on the pnp side of things with your work at Goblinworks working on PFO. I have to say I love Kobolds of Golarion and I think you did a great job making Kobolds fun to play.
Thanks Tork. Nice to see you are still involved on the pnp side of things with your work at Goblinworks working on PFO. I have to say I love Kobolds of Golarion and I think you did a great job making Kobolds fun to play.The feat was designed for Kobold Oracles. It allows for a kobold Dragon Disciple based on the oracle which has various advantages over the Sorcerer (improved BAB, more self buff spells, armor, better hit dice (D8 over D6). It makes a MUCH more powerful kobold dragon disciple, which makes sense for a dragon obsessed race. It also makes a pretty nice Inquisitor DD, although that was not the primary intent.
I know this because I designed it. I consider it FAR from useless. It is a powerful feat for kobold dragon disciples in itself but combined with Small But Deadly it allows for a useful kobold melee DD. It does not make kobold melee DDs as powerful as other, stronger races. Of course it doesnt, and it remains a balanced feat when being abused with racial heritage (so much cheese).
I wrote a lot of Kobolds of Golarion and when writing the crunch stuff as a huge fan of kobolds I was focused on helping to mitigate some of their weaknesses to make kobold characters fun to play in a balanced party. What I was NOT doing was trying to find ways to make kobolds overpowered. They are one of the weakest races in Golarion, unfortunately, and they are meant to be that way.
Thanks Imbicatus :) I am still doing bits and bobs on the pnp side here and there, although I have a bit less time that I used to. I'm glad you had fun with Kobolds of Golarion - I've not had a chance to play my own Kobold character in a proper campaign yet but I will be heavily leaning on KoG for him when I do!
I quite like Kobolds of golarion; the dragon herald bard Archetype is particularly interesting. But yeah, the whole oracle to dragon herald functions poorly for me, if only because of the massive STR penalty... it's an interesting feat, but I must admit it doesnt seem to synergize well with it's endgoal. Oh well, it's nice to get input from those who created the feats.
I quite like Kobolds of golarion; the dragon herald bard Archetype is particularly interesting. But yeah, the whole oracle to dragon herald functions poorly for me, if only because of the massive STR penalty... it's an interesting feat, but I must admit it doesnt seem to synergize well with it's endgoal. Oh well, it's nice to get input from those who created the feats.
I am pretty comfortable that I achieved my endgoal :)
It was meant to be a flavourful way to allow kobolds to channel draconic power without having to be sorcerers (or bards). Oracles with dragon god patrons seemed, to my mind, like just as good a candidate for DD as sorcerers. It also gives kobolds slightly better survivability in the DD role - and lore-wise becoming a DD is the pure kobold dream. It was never meant to be a powerful feat. I dont tend to design for min/maxing. Those poor wee kobolds need options, and that was my main goal.That said, I think you could have some success/power with Weapon Finesse, going natural weapon based with Small but Deadly (or eventually an agile weapon), and with Cleric buffs and touch spells. At the end of the day though Kobolds are not melee characters, and it is not really possible to create a powerful kobold melee build.
Perhaps a Kobold-appropriate tweak would be the Feat changing DD and the Draconic Bloodline to boost DEX instead of STR, if you so choose. Or maybe integrate it better into a Ninja build, with +1d6 Sneak Attack instead of STR boosts?
Perhaps a Kobold-appropriate tweak would be the Feat changing DD and the Draconic Bloodline to boost DEX instead of STR, if you so choose. Or maybe integrate it better into a Ninja build, with +1d6 Sneak Attack instead of STR boosts?
I see what you are saying, but like I mentioned, I was not seeking to make them inherently more powerful :)
Kobolds are weak. Even their most powerful champions are weak. This is reflected in their CR (and the fact that the poor wee guys are always getting stomped in low-level adventures). I think there is a danger in design to always look for some way to make the creature/player more POWERFUL, but balance is in fact a much more important feature of design than power. As a designer you are working WITH your fellow adventure and scenario designers to create character options which are varied and exciting, but also balanced. And not just balanced against each other but also balanced within the context of the game world. When a feat slips through and actually inherently breaks some aspect of level play it is a boon for players but a real problem for designers.
In summary, it is totally fair to say that the Scaled Disciple feat will not make for a game-optimal Dragon Disciple using oracle or inquisitor. There is no game-optimal kobold Dragon Disciple. I'd suggest one of the tiefling variants (there is an STR and CHA one I think) for DD, or of course an Aasimar (again I think there is a STR CHA one). If, however, you wish to play a kobold infused with some kind of divine power who seeks to exalt his ancestry by dedicating himself to the draconic ways then I'd suggest a kobold oracle/D.
S'all about flavour, innit.
That's really disheartening. I was really pumped to make a kobold dragon disciple and was just thinking I was missing something, but now it seems like a waste of time. Don't get me wrong; I love flavor and am not some sort of super min-maxer (if I was, I wouldn't be trying to go kobold in the first place) but being bad at what you set out to do isn't fun, no matter the flavor. Plus it just really rubs me the wrong way that a race that the feat isn't made for gets way better mileage out of it than the race it was made for. Maybe I should give up on this kobold character business...
Oh well, thanks anyway. My original question has been answered, mostly. I'm still curious about which mystery gives the most number of Dragon domain spells, since cleric and inquisitor lists don't get them and the Inquisitor page on d20srd explicitly says that Inquisitors don't receive the bonus spells of their domains.
I hear ya. I'm giving it my own shot to try to get somethng functional, but I dont have much hope.
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I have a question about the final line of the feat,
"Add the bonus spells gained from the blood of dragons ability to those you can cast as divine spells."
Does that mean that the character gains the sorcerer bonus spells of 3rd (mage armor), 5th (resist energy), 7th (fly) and 9th (fear) at the equivalent DD levels and adds them as Oracle spells of the appropriate levels?
Yes.
I hear ya. I'm giving it my own shot to try to get somethng functional, but I dont have much hope.That's really disheartening. I was really pumped to make a kobold dragon disciple and was just thinking I was missing something, but now it seems like a waste of time. Don't get me wrong; I love flavor and am not some sort of super min-maxer (if I was, I wouldn't be trying to go kobold in the first place) but being bad at what you set out to do isn't fun, no matter the flavor. Plus it just really rubs me the wrong way that a race that the feat isn't made for gets way better mileage out of it than the race it was made for. Maybe I should give up on this kobold character business...
Oh well, thanks anyway. My original question has been answered, mostly. I'm still curious about which mystery gives the most number of Dragon domain spells, since cleric and inquisitor lists don't get them and the Inquisitor page on d20srd explicitly says that Inquisitors don't receive the bonus spells of their domains.
Wow, I'm intrigued to know what you guys' definition of "functional" is? You are only talking an oracle/DD with reduced Strength. I cant quite see how that is "not fun"? It still ends up being a 2/3BAB caster missing only a couple of spell progression levels but gaining dragon bloodline powers, expanded spells known, and NA, Con and Str bonuses. It literally only missing 2 points of Str. It frightens me slightly that you would consider such a character unworkable in Pathfinder.
Wow, I'm intrigued to know what you guys' definition of "functional" is? You are only talking an oracle/DD with reduced Strength. I cant quite see how that is "not fun"? It still ends up being a 2/3BAB caster missing only a couple of spell progression levels but gaining dragon bloodline powers, expanded spells known, and NA, Con and Str bonuses. It literally only missing 2 points of Str. It frightens me slightly that you would consider such a character unworkable in Pathfinder.
I guess it depends what role you expect the DD to take. I'll admit I'm an ardent theorycrafter, and I enjoy building things for the heck of it. Anything is "playable" in the right circumstances, from a commoner to a wizard with 10 int. It might even be fun in the right circumstances. But I TRY to build within the expectations of the game, avoiding the pitfalls of table variance as much as possible.
Now, pathfinder is a game built around combat. Combat is the highest risk situation in most games I've played, and thus all PCs have to be able to hold their own (in some role) in those circumstances.
I generally build with certain expectations based on CR=Level monsters (mainly to determine saves, necessary to-hit bonuses, AC) so that the character can survive (for CR+X challenges, I always assume outside buffing). If I choose a character, they've got to fulfill some kind of role (generally buffage, area control, or frontline, though there are more).
So what roles can a kobold DD take? Now, the general DD (as per the popular DD guide) can take 3 roles: magically enhanced frontliner, slightly tougher caster, or "magical switch-hitter".
1) Frontliner/Magical switch-hitter: The kobolds have -4 str. That is huge, especially for a 3/4 bab class. They are lucky if they start with 10 str, so they will have a hard time hitting anything, especially if you want to invest in defenses (con, dex, wis) or it's casting ability (cha). At low-level that role cannot be played. At high-level MAYBE but the numbers I ran werent favorable against CR-equal monsters.
2) Caster: while more workable, the value gained is debatable by going into DD. Less casting, slightly tougher (although the strength is wasted, as well as the claws) more spells available, some goodies. It's really hard to say, since the value of the abilities is hard to quantify.
Look, I'm not saying a kobold DD cant be fun, it seems Iconic. BUT, when I play, I generally want to be able to excel at the role I choose for myself. Games arent fun when you feel like a fifth wheel. And I have a hard time finding something that the kobold DD can excel in.
Now, I would love to see how you would do it. There are a lot of feats out there that I wonder how the designers expected them to be used by players (prone shooter is a good example) and I'd be interested in seeing how the designer intended it to be used with a character.
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Wow, I'm intrigued to know what you guys' definition of "functional" is? You are only talking an oracle/DD with reduced Strength. I cant quite see how that is "not fun"? It still ends up being a 2/3BAB caster missing only a couple of spell progression levels but gaining dragon bloodline powers, expanded spells known, and NA, Con and Str bonuses. It literally only missing 2 points of Str. It frightens me slightly that you would consider such a character unworkable in Pathfinder.
Sadly many people strip Pathfinder down to spreadsheet numbers against the mythical "average CR creature" in void settings and treat everything as some sort of math problem. Functional becomes purely a matter of "best chance of winning". I blame a lot of it on the MMO mentality of stripping everything down to pure numbers and ignoring the human factor.
Personally I prefer fun and interesting, as in all of my years of playing table top RPGs, from red box D&D until now, I have never once faced a giant average math equation in perfectly void conditions that allowed everything to simply be calculated out without any creativity or human interaction. Maybe it's just me.
Tork, you mentioned Small but Deadly as being good for a Kobold DD, but doesn't that become non-functional once you get your STR bonuses from DD? One you get past STR 10 you have no penalty to STR. Or does the feat actually just get a flat bonus to damage equal to STR Penalty of your Race?
I do remember there's an FAQ that says you get "back" the str lost to your str penalty. So a halfling with -2 to str with small but deadly would get a +1 to damage, regardless of acutal str value.
@ Fomsie: Look, you can dislike theorycrafters all you want, but not all of us have access to much playtime. On the other hand, I do have moments here&there to look and analyse the way the system of the game works.
And while it has very little to do with fun inherently, it does tie into my main expectation from the game:
A sense of self-empowerement.
I play the game to feel stronger/more impactful/ more significant than most of the time. Part of that is being good at my role in the game. I use theorycrafting as a benchmark to the capacity of the character. I do acknowledge MASSIVE table variance, but at least this permits me to go into a game not totally blind.
That base benchmark does not indicate a role at which the kobold DD would excel, which is pretty dissapointing (dragon herald bard archetype is nice though).
I see what you are saying, but like I mentioned, I was not seeking to make them inherently more powerful :)
Kobolds are weak. Even their most powerful champions are weak. This is reflected in their CR (and the fact that the poor wee guys are always getting stomped in low-level adventures). I think there is a danger in design to always look for some way to make the creature/player more POWERFUL, but balance is in fact a much more important feature of design than power.
Yeah, as per my previous comment, I agree that the starting point for this is whether it is helpful/viable for a Kobold to take, not whether it's optimal to be a non-Rogue Kobold melee character in the first place. No argument there... But I'm still kind of dubious on your CR argument... 'Kobolds are weak as reflected in their CR'.
If you're adding class levels to them, those class levels add the same amount of CR. Adding CR is supposed to make something more powerful. You can in fact add Rogue or Ninja Class Levels to Kobolds, and that works very well for the CR... This being a Race-specific Class build, it seems reasonable to work reasonably well. Certainly since this justn't isn't a 'no cost' option, but is actually taking up a Feat Slot, i.e. displacing an otherwise useful Combat Feat or whatever. That kind of raises the bar a bit. Kobolds being low STR and low CR will still have a lower CR vs. tougher high STR, high CR races with the same class combo.
I just imagine that if the upcoming Bloodrager is compatable with the Urban Barbarian Archetype (via dip if not as a direct option for Bloodrager), that such a build will just be able to work WAY better for Kobolds (allocating bonus to STR or DEX on the fly). Bloodrager will likely be more optimal in lots of ways, of course, compared to a PrC build, but I suspect that Kobolds will just be able to disproportionately leverage that (via Urban Barbarian Controlled Rage dip or as direct Archetype to Bloodrager).
In such a scenario, would you be comfortable with a Feat like Scaled Disciple converting Bloodrager to Divine Casting? If so, what is the problem with Scaled Disciple/Dragon Disciple working better? (in terms of DEX vs. STR/Sneak Attack focus) It still wouldn't have the general synergies of a base class like Bloodrager, but would at least be a Race-Specific Class Build that actually works well for that Race (at the cost of a Feat).
Wow, I'm intrigued to know what you guys' definition of "functional" is? You are only talking an oracle/DD with reduced Strength. I cant quite see how that is "not fun"? It still ends up being a 2/3BAB caster missing only a couple of spell progression levels but gaining dragon bloodline powers, expanded spells known, and NA, Con and Str bonuses. It literally only missing 2 points of Str. It frightens me slightly that you would consider such a character unworkable in Pathfinder.
I guess it depends what role you expect the DD to take. I'll admit I'm an ardent theorycrafter, and I enjoy building things for the heck of it. Anything is "playable" in the right circumstances, from a commoner to a wizard with 10 int. It might even be fun in the right circumstances. But I TRY to build within the expectations of the game, avoiding the pitfalls of table variance as much as possible.
Now, pathfinder is a game built around combat. Combat is the highest risk situation in most games I've played, and thus all PCs have to be able to hold their own (in some role) in those circumstances.
I generally build with certain expectations based on CR=Level monsters (mainly to determine saves, necessary to-hit bonuses, AC) so that the character can survive (for CR+X challenges, I always assume outside buffing). If I choose a character, they've got to fulfill some kind of role (generally buffage, area control, or frontline, though there are more).
So what roles can a kobold DD take? Now, the general DD (as per the popular DD guide) can take 3 roles: magically enhanced frontliner, slightly tougher caster, or "magical switch-hitter".1) Frontliner/Magical switch-hitter: The kobolds have -4 str. That is huge, especially for a 3/4 bab class. They are lucky if they start with 10 str, so they will have a hard time hitting anything, especially if you want to invest in defenses (con, dex, wis) or it's casting ability (cha). At low-level that role cannot be played. At high-level MAYBE but the numbers I...
I am also pretty big on the theory-craft - I really enjoy making sure my characters have a 'thing' that they do at least as well as the game expects. Aside from anything else it is pretty much common courtesy to your fellow adventures not to be a drain on resources ;)
That said, I also find it is a lot of fun to build my characters around 'character' features as well as game features. One of my most favorite characters to play was an aging, foppish, pot-bellied, alcoholic bard. He was dangerously excellent at buffing and social play (his Diplomacy was basically game-breaking) but he was a mid-range combatant at best. He wanted to be a hero, however, to recover some of his lost glory - so he was in combat the whole time - supporting the party but never excelling in that arena.
Conversely I had a cross-dressing Cleric of Shaundukal in a FR game. Armond/Wind Sister Cecile was a spectacular combatant but a mediocre magic user and (with a high strength, poor charisma, and a terrible disguise skill) a terrible transvestite.
The characters I get excited about always have some kind of built in mechanical weakness to overcome. I find that just as much fun as playing to whatever strength they have too. I completely agree that they need a strength - but for me, a human fighter with a Strength of 16 counts as a powerful combatant. He doesnt need to have Strength 20, Constitution 20, and every racial/favoured class/archetype bonus he can to boost his one combat trick - he is a reliable combatant just by pure virtue of his BAB and Strength. I'd probably end up taking some random 2/3BAB prestige class for him, or Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and give him a pacifist bent or something, just to round him out as a real-world creature.
Obviously playing the game is different for everyone and as you mention you prefer to develop a sense of power for your characters. I totally get that, but I'd urge you to remember that the game is designed for a balanced PARTY - not for a bunch of lone guns. If you shine too often at the table you are denying your fellow players the chance to shine, and visa versa - unless you can find a way to allow all of you to shine! Team work, action combos, or even simply a really strong personality that comes through even in the least mechanically powerful set of actions.
As for making a Kobold DD - I'd love to have a go :) I've got a few ideas in my head so I'll do a quick mechanics sketch for one for you when I get a moment. I'd probably go the caster-with-a-twist route since even the most delusional kobold would be ill-advised to try toe-to-toe from level 1 onwards!
(I tried to Edit this into previous post, but got timed out while composing it)
I think that comparison to other classes does need to be taken into account... I honestly don't really see very much "conceptual space" between Scaled Disciple and a Rage Prophet w/ Eldritch Heritage(Draconic), both are STR-boosted Hybrid Melee/Divine Casters with Draconic abilities... With the Rage Prophet able to go Urban Barbarian and get on-demand STR or DEX boosts. The Rage Prophet approach just seems to work WAY better... Even without Urban Barbarian DEX boosting, they aren't spending a Feat just to get the PrC to work with a Divine Class. That still isn't really going to look 'optimal' vs. non-Kobolds, but it feels substantially more worthwhile to take AS a Kobold.
What Scaled Disciple is doing is spending a Feat to modify a Class... I'm not sure why it isn't an Archetype to begin with, it should be a Kobold-only Archetype of Rage Prophet. Not spending a Feat for it would make it a bit more reasonable as it currently functions (otherwise). But since the Rage Prophet build already exists and works better than Scaled Disciple as-is, I might consider taking a Scaled Disciple Archetype in a different direction: modify Dragon Disciple to use the KOBOLD Bloodline and adjust the ability bonuses and other abilities to have synergistic functionality with that. That feels like it's staking out a more distinct "conceptual space", and would be mechanically worthwhile vs. the other options Kobolds have.
I see what you are saying, but like I mentioned, I was not seeking to make them inherently more powerful :)
Kobolds are weak. Even their most powerful champions are weak. This is reflected in their CR (and the fact that the poor wee guys are always getting stomped in low-level adventures). I think there is a danger in design to always look for some way to make the creature/player more POWERFUL, but balance is in fact a much more important feature of design than power.
Yeah, as per my previous comment, I agree that the starting point for this is whether it is helpful/viable for a Kobold to take, not whether it's optimal to be a non-Rogue Kobold melee character in the first place. No argument there... But I'm still kind of dubious on your CR argument... 'Kobolds are weak as reflected in their CR'.
If you're adding class levels to them, those class levels add the same amount of CR. Adding CR is supposed to make something more powerful. You can in fact add Rogue or Ninja Class Levels to Kobolds, and that works very well for the CR... This being a Race-specific Class build, it seems reasonable to work reasonably well. Certainly since this justn't isn't a 'no cost' option, but is actually taking up a Feat Slot, i.e. displacing an otherwise useful Combat Feat or whatever. That kind of raises the bar a bit. Kobolds being low STR and low CR will still have a lower CR vs. tougher high STR, high CR races with the same class combo.
I just imagine that if the upcoming Bloodrager is compatable with the Urban Barbarian Archetype (via dip if not as a direct option for Bloodrager), that such a build will just be able to work WAY better for Kobolds (allocating bonus to STR or DEX on the fly). Bloodrager will likely be more optimal in lots of ways, of course, compared to a PrC build, but I suspect that Kobolds will just be able to disproportionately leverage that (via Urban Barbarian Controlled Rage dip or as direct Archetype to Bloodrager).
In such a scenario, would you be...
Well first off I'd never advise a 'dip' in anything. Dips are the hallmark of cheese, in my opinion (I appreciate that others have other opinions). There is nothing mechanically preventing a player from taking a dip and there are always RP reasons you can work one if you need to justify something to your GM, but they are a side-feature of the PF system - not how the system was intended to work. I get why people do it - particularly in PFS where you never achieve a class's full potential, but they are invariably about squeezing out some very specific (and often minor) bonus that stacks up with all your other bonuses to make your character in some way imbalanced. Not in every way, of course, and I appreciate that there is always a cost to a dip - but if you end up with an extra +4/+6/+8 to your CMB for a particular maneuver, for example, so that your maneuver lands EVERY time you are edging the element of chance out of the game - and that makes it much harder to a) design content for and b) to be a hero in. Playing a heroic character is not about always succeeding every damn time, its about overcoming danger and adversity. Min/Maxing your characters sucks a great deal of heroism out of the game which I personally think detracts heavily from the nature of a Role Playing game. I mean we have all played in the party where one player's character is basically invincible and unstoppable and that can seriously overshadow other players. I hold my hands up and admit I've been that character, and I've even had to retire a couple for that very reason. Experiments gone wrong, as it were.
In answer to your mechanical questions - I'd first say that I tend to treat Kobolds as creatures with no key classes, which gives them a bit more leeway when it comes to class levels and CRs.
On top of that CR is not an exact science at all (hell, look at angels/ghouls/rust oozes. Bananas!) so I agree that some creatures with the same starting CRs will end up better than kobolds with the same level load-out, even if neither takes key class levels. I'm ok with that. Kobolds are weak and frail. They are better at some things than others, just like EVERY race. The Oracle/DD design was not meant to make Oracle/DD suddenly one of the things that they are great at - they are NOT melee creatures and the DD is a melee class - but it was meant to make them BETTER at it than they were - and I think you can agree it has done so.
Yes, I wanted to delete the Bloodrager stuff just because it wasn't published yet when this was written, so not quite a fair comparison... And I felt that the Rage Prophet+Eldritch Heritage was just as or more relevant.
That said, the point wasn't dependent on a 'dip', as it seems likely given the relationship of the "Advanced Class Guide" classes to their base classes, that you could take a Barbarian Archetype (Urban) if the features it modifies/replaces are within Bloodrager (Rage, Uncanny Dodge, Imp. Uncanny Dodge). AFAIK, that is the explicit design intent, because they want these classes to function with 'auxiliary' material already out there for related classes.
(I tried to Edit this into previous post, but got timed out while composing it)
I think that comparison to other classes does need to be taken into account... I honestly don't really see very much "conceptual space" between Scaled Disciple and a Rage Prophet w/ Eldritch Heritage(Draconic), both are STR-boosted Hybrid Melee/Divine Casters with Draconic abilities... With the Rage Prophet able to go Urban Barbarian and get on-demand STR or DEX boosts. The Rage Prophet approach just seems to work WAY better... Even without Urban Barbarian DEX boosting, they aren't spending a Feat just to get the PrC to work with a Divine Class. That still isn't really going to look 'optimal' vs. non-Kobolds, but it feels substantially more worthwhile to take AS a Kobold.
What Scaled Disciple is doing is spending a Feat to modify a Class... I'm not sure why it isn't an Archetype to begin with, it should be a Kobold-only Archetype of Rage Prophet. Since the Rage Prophet build already exists and works better than Scaled Disciple as-is, I might consider taking a Scaled Disciple Archetype in a different direction: modify Dragon Disciple to use the KOBOLD Bloodline and adjust the ability bonuses and other abilities to have synergistic functionality with that. That feels like it's staking out a more distinct "conceptual space", and would be mechanically worthwhile vs. the other options Kobolds have.
Ok, one more time ;)
I agree that there are better options than the Oracle/DD. There are a handful of better options if you want to play a casting melee kobold. The Oracle/DD is NOT an optimised choice and was never meant to be. Every class/race/archetype I write is not an optimised choice. Thats not really what design is about, I'm afraid. It is a trap that 3.5/Wizards fell into with their splat books - power creep to achieve sales - but its a slippery slope, and Paizo are keen to avoid it (although some would argue there is already a certain amount of slippage...)Look at the Dragon Herald, an archetype I also wrote. I'd argue that it is a powerful archetype,and it seems to get a lot of love above. Its later abilities are really strong and Sanctuary with a DC based on class level Cha for a bard? YES PLEASE. I would choose to play a dragon herald because a) I think its flavorful and b) I think its powerful enough in its own right that I could spend all my feats/skills to expand my CHARACTER around that archetype without having to shore up its defences.
Look at the Fey summoner archetype, however. Wonderfully flavorful, but in many ways weaker than the core Summoner. A mistake? No. A deliberate choice by the designer and his editors to create a niche summoner packed with flavor that doesnt overshadow either the original class or its archetypes. Its a balance that Paizo strive for across the board but its extremely hard to maintain with so many developers/editors/freelancers all working on different things at different times. Sometimes a Dragon Herald or a Scarred Witchdoctor gets through and they shift that class slightly in one direction or another. These are (to some extent) balanced by the vast majority of the work that falls more in the Scaled Disciple camp - fair, balanced, flavourful, but without too much creep.
Yeah, I guess for me it is not the power level being too low PER SE, but that the same concept (divine melee hybrid w/ dragon flavor) can be achieved more successfully/powerfully via another build (Rage Prophet+Eldritch Heritage). Honestly, Eldritch Heritage is very optional for that, you can just 'fluff' Barbarian options like Animal Fury(Bite) and Elemental Totem as being 'Draconic' in origin.
In both approaches, pursuing a STR-build melee hybrid caster with a Kobold is going to be 'suboptimal' vs. other Races, that's not the issue. But paying a Feat for the priviledge of a weaker implementation of a concept seems dubious, especially when it really feels like an Archetype in drag. Given that Rage Prophet (and Eldritch Heritage, if you want) exists, I'd just say that a Kobold Bloodline Archetype for DD feels like it would be staking out more of a unique conceptual space.
Excuse my nitpicking ;-)
Yeah, I guess for me it is not the power level being too low PER SE, but that the same concept (divine melee hybrid w/ dragon flavor) can be achieved more successfully/powerfully via another build (Rage Prophet+Eldritch Heritage). Honestly, Eldritch Heritage is very optional for that, you can just 'fluff' Barbarian options like Animal Fury(Bite) and Elemental Totem as being 'Draconic' in origin.
In both approaches, pursuing a STR-build melee hybrid caster with a Kobold is going to be 'suboptimal' vs. other Races, that's not the issue. But paying a Feat for the priviledge of a weaker implementation of a concept seems dubious, especially when it really feels like an Archetype in drag. Given that Rage Prophet (and Eldritch Heritage, if you want) exists, I'd just say that a Kobold Bloodline Archetype for DD feels like it would be staking out more of a unique conceptual space.
Excuse my nitpicking ;-)
Haha nitpicking is what these forums are all about ;)
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Ha! I think if a true dragon was reincarnated as a kobold, they would kill themselves out of shame. Talk about a fate worse than death...I always liked the idea of a Kobold Reincarnated Druid.
Claiming to be a reincarnated dragon.
Claimed to be a dragon.
Also, after 5th level, killing said PC could only be a boon.