Is there a wizard / sorcerer version of creation spells?

[Liam Warner]

I like the idea of magically creating items (even if I have to pay a value cost to do so) as its not tied to what is available in your region. However the only ones I can find are cleric artifice ones even though arcane casters can create entire demi-planes. So I was just wondering are there any creation spells for arcane casters out there and if not could I just "research" an arcane version with the same rules as the cleric ones and maybe a 9th level one with a 1-1 cost rather than 5 times?

[Weirdo]

Minor Creation and Major Creation are sorcerer / wizard spells.

EDIT: And so is Fabricate.

[Liam Warner]

Weirdo wrote:

Minor Creation and Major Creation are sorcerer / wizard spells.

EDIT: And so is Fabricate.

Thanks but I'm looking for something that will create permanent items which can also be used as material components or in construction.although if there's a temporary 5tg level spell I don't see a problem with a 8th level arcane version of true creation. Now I just need to work out if a 1 for 1 cost is reasonable for a 9th level one.

[Remy Balster]

Wall of Stone! Wall of Iron!

[Aspasia de Malagant]

Some specific examples would help here.

Fabricate, Stone Shape, Blood Money (as a substitute for creating costly material components), Masterwork Transformation, Create Holds, Hardening, Move Earth, Limited Wish, Wish, Wall of Stone, and Wall of Iron all can perform permanent effects used in creating stuff.

Minor Creation, Major Creation, and Polymorph any Object provide a less than permanent solution to the same problems...

Hope this helps.

[Liam Warner]

So I'm assuming there's no problem creating an arcane version of the artifice domains http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/true-creation "true creation' spell. I'm wondering therefore . . .

1) Could you develop a 9th level "Improved True Creation" that reduces the cost to 1 for 1 rather than 5 for 1 or is that too big a difference between a 9th level spell and an 8th level one?

2) Could you create a mythic version that reduces the cost to 2.5 rather than 5 times and with 2 expended mythic points can either double the amount create or negate the cost entirely?

[Weirdo]

True Creation comes from 3.5E, and technically does not exist in Pathfinder. (Which explains why I'd never heard of it and it wasn't listed under the Artifice domain)

It seems balanced to introduce to PF either as an artifice domain spell or an arcane spell. PF is very light on permanent create-from-nothing effects, with Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, and Blood Money being the only real examples from Aspasia de Malagant's list. But the 5x cost seems a sufficient convenience tax and prevents the PCs from using the spell for get-rich-quick schemes.

I might apply a 2x cost for the Improved Version, but 1x doesn't seem overpowered. 9th level spells are supposed to be pretty fantastic.

I'm not familiar enough with mythic rules to say, but probably would never negate the cost because of the concenrn with get-rich-quick schemes. At minimum it should cost 1/3 the item's cost (raw material cost, as Fabricate).

[Liam Warner]

Weirdo wrote:

True Creation comes from 3.5E, and technically does not exist in Pathfinder. (Which explains why I'd never heard of it and it wasn't listed under the Artifice domain)

It seems balanced to introduce to PF either as an artifice domain spell or an arcane spell. PF is very light on permanent create-from-nothing effects, with Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, and Blood Money being the only real examples from Aspasia de Malagant's list. But the 5x cost seems a sufficient convenience tax and prevents the PCs from using the spell for get-rich-quick schemes.

I might apply a 2x cost for the Improved Version, but 1x doesn't seem overpowered. 9th level spells are supposed to be pretty fantastic.

I'm not familiar enough with mythic rules to say, but probably would never negate the cost because of the concenrn with get-rich-quick schemes. At minimum it should cost 1/3 the item's cost (raw material cost, as Fabricate).

To be honest I'm not that familiar with them either beyond knowing there's a Mythic point cost on spells something about 2 points or the like and I figured if your paying that much for some truly mythic ability being able to conjure food/gold/lumber out of thin air with a wave of your hand considering this would be a 8/9th level mythical spell didn't seem overpowered. Then again that's why I'm asking here where people will have a better idea of how these things work when creating your own.

[seebs]

The problem with any cost lower than unity for a generic creation spell is (using a material cost of half the value of the thing created as an example):

1. Obtain 5gp worth of diamond dust as material components.
2. Cast spell using 5gp worth of diamond dust to create an item worth 10gp, namely, a pile of diamond dust worth 10gp.
3. 20gp.
4. 40gp.
5. 80gp.
6. 160gp.
7. 320gp.
8. 640gp.
9. 1280gp.
10. 2560gp.
11. 5120gp.
12. 10240gp.
13. 20480gp.
14. 40960gp.
15. 81920gp.
16. 163840gp.

... see the problem?

If you can increase the value of your possessions significantly in a way not inherently bounded, there is a game balance problem.

Fabricate is okay specifically because the increase is limited to a single x3 upgrade representing raw materials to crafted goods.

[Liam Warner]

Fair point but like I said this is a mythic 9th level spell by which point the players are by and large going to be beyond the need for cash. Afterall there isn't much difference between having 10 million GP and 100 million GP. Add in the fact the non-mythic version is 1 for 1 i.e. you can't create 10gp worth of diamond dust without 10gp of something else and I felt the odds of abuse were low. Its more of a mythic wizard creates out of their own power materials needed for rebuilding the town.

[seebs]

Wealth By Level suggests around 880k total wealth at level 20. And there are huge differences to be had between merely insane amounts of money and really insane amounts of money.

And basically, 1:1 is fine, but anything more than that is a serious problem.

[blahpers]

This sounds more like a homebrew thread than a rules question.

[Weirdo]

Definitely homebrew at this point.

I agree with seebs - cutting the cost for True Creation below 1:1 allows limitless wealth generation and that can cause problems. Characters with the ability to double or triple their funds with a single spell slot can find all sorts of really expensive consumables to burn through. Take a 20th level character with 880K who converts all their wealth to diamonds and uses an 8th-9th level spell slot to make 1760K in diamonds (880K profit). That's enough to:

1) Cast Wish 30 times (25K*5*6 = 750K), granting a +5 inherent bonus to all ability scores

2) Buy 200 +10 arrows (800K), or 800 +5 arrows, or 5500 +2 arrows. Magical ammunition is normally too expensive for regular use, but this amount of wealth lets you use +1 bane arrows for every shot, and use +1 (flaming&icy&shocking&corrosive) burst arrows on the big targets - stacking, of course, with your +5 bow.

3) Make an army of 88 Simulacra of 20th-level characters (yourself, your party...)

4) Buy 10 9th level Pearls of Power, 5 9th Level Runestones of Power, or 10 9th Level Pages of Spell Knowledge (or some combination of the above) to massively increase your casting potential.

[Liam Warner]

Hmm I thought it would be a rules question oh well.

Yes there is potential for abuse but like I said this is a mythic 9th level spell don't those need to be special?

[Weirdo]

But as special as the above benefits you could potentially get from True creation with half cost materials? I found an 8th and a 9th level mythic spell for comparison:

Soulreaver, level 8

Soulreaver wrote:

This potent death spell deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 20d6) to living creatures in the area of effect.

...
Augmented (8th): If you expend two uses of mythic power, you can raise slain foes as undead creatures chosen from the list of undead for create undead. By expending three uses of mythic power, you can select from the list for create greater undead. The total number of Hit Dice worth of undead created in this way can't exceed double your tier. Created undead are not automatically under your control. If you are capable of commanding undead, you may attempt to command the undead creatures as they form.

At most you get 20HD worth of undead minions, which much be controlled using other means (and count against your total limit of undead controlled). Not as good as the 88 10th level Simulacra which are automatically loyal and don't count against the undead controlled limit.

Ascension, level 9

Ascension wrote:

You imbue a number of creatures with mythic power, granting each of them 1st tier in a mythic path of its choice. The creatures immediately gain the benefits of their chosen paths. Divide the duration evenly among all targets.

The targets retain their mythic tier only while they're within 100 feet of the spell's focus component. A target that goes outside this range loses its mythic tier, but instantly regains it if it moves into range again. If the focus component is destroyed while the spell is in effect, the spell immediately ends and all targets gain 1d4 permanent negative levels.

Mythic: If you expend one use of mythic power when casting this spell, the duration increases to 1 day per level, and you can use yourself as the focus for this spell instead of a lesser artifact.

Granting non-mythic allies a 1st tier mythic path is probably as long as they stay within 100ft of a focus might be handy, but it is probably not as good as the simulacra, or the 5-10 9th level spell slots / spells known, or the +5 to all ability scores.

Now, if you're using this at a home table and trust your players not to abuse it it should be fine. It might also be a good idea to set a cap on the value of objects that can be made without components with True Creation. I'm not sure what the cap should be but if you're wanting it for things like materials for rebuilding a town 1K gp might be suitable. That allows a good range of items to be made without allowing explosive increase in wealth. You probably should also require a craft check to make any complex finished items (like weapons) since all other creation spells do.