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This is one extreme of the spectrum but i dont think anyone is arguiing that Racial Heritage makes you indistinguishable from the heritage species. I for one fully agree, that isnt even in the realm of the intent of the feat and i am confident that the design team would say the same. The other extreme of the spectrum however seems to have a lot of support, that is, the feat allows absolutely no physical signs of the heritage to show. To me that is just as absurd and would mean the individual would perfectly pass off as a normal member of their species. That would make it extremely hard to justify allowing any non magical race based effect to fly. Some people have already said there is a happy medium between these points but no one agrees where that point is. I cant have a non functioning tail from the feat, fine. Can i have a beak like mouth from RH Tengu to qualify for Long Nose Form? Or could i take Long Nose Form without a beak now...You seem to be confusing "anatomy" and "appearance".not at all. if you look above, you said "characteristics" not anatomy. i responded to that argument. i see what you mean, though, and still disagree.But this entire discussion has been about anatomy. Actually introducing the word changes nothing other than hopefully clarifying my point.
i really don't think what makes someone human or a merfolk is as simplistic (or restrictive) as you think it is. and having legs would totally be an appearance option for a merfolk with human heritage (if they could even take it) if they want to have legs... why wouldn't it be? it wouldn't affect what your movement options are.With regard to Racial Heritage, I think it is that restrictive. If the feat would allow a human, for example, to look exactly like an elf, in each and every aspect of outward anatomy, even fooling the most meticulous inspection, I'd think there'd be at least some mention of that in the feat.
No you do not get a beak. Racial Heritage is very clear what it does. You can indeed pass as a perfectly normal member of your species. Racial Heritage doesn't mean mamma Kobold slept with papa human and you were the result. It says your ancestry has some non-human genetics somewhere in the past. In my bloodline I have a Cherokee ancestry but no one looking at me would know that without a DNA test or something. Scientific arguments aside we are talking about a rules question and the text of the feat is very clear on its rules effect. You can substitute this feat for one non-humanoid race requirement for feats, spells, etc... That is the end of the rule. Anything beyond is the matter of GM discretion but is not RAW.
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With regard to Racial Heritage, I think it is that restrictive. If the feat would allow a human, for example, to look exactly like an elf, in each and every aspect of outward anatomy, even fooling the most meticulous inspection, I'd think there'd be at least some mention of that in the feat.This is one extreme of the spectrum but i dont think anyone is arguiing that Racial Heritage makes you indistinguishable from the heritage species. I for one fully agree, that isnt even in the realm of the intent of the feat and i am confident that the design team would say the same. The other extreme of the spectrum however seems to have a lot of support, that is, the feat allows absolutely no physical signs of the heritage to show. To me that is just as absurd and would mean the individual would perfectly pass off as a normal member of their species. That would make it extremely hard to justify allowing any non magical race based effect to fly. Some people have already said there is a happy medium between these points but no one agrees where that point is. I cant have a non functioning tail from the feat, fine. Can i have a beak like mouth from RH Tengu to qualify for Long Nose Form? Or could i take Long Nose Form without a beak now...
People are actually arguing you can be indistinguishable from the heritage species. There have been claims that the feat allows you to pick aspects from either race, as you see fit. Making yourself indistinguishable from the heritage race is just taking that to its unavoidable extreme.
Since the feat doesn't put bounds on any of its "effects", introducing such bounds with regard to anatomical "effects" is a fabrication based upon how people want the feat to work, not how it is written. It doesn't say you look like some kind of hybrid. It doesn't even remotely hint at that.
The only way out of this ridiculous trap is to acknowledge that inherent anatomical characteristics of race are not an "effect" of race. Failing that, you'll have to accept that humans with a single elf ancestor dozens of generation back can look more like an elf than a half-elf.
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Long nose would simply allow one to have a "Long nose" form. I liken it to looking like Professor Snape.
It isn't a work of fiction I was comparing it to, I was comparing the ridiculous long winded explanation to the techno babble that is prevalent in the Star Trek series. (Especially in The Next Gen and Voyager)
It seems to be going into a comedy routine that a comedian would do as an imitation of James T. Kirk. The overall points seem to slip into a void from which no man has ever gone before. I have to step away from the puter to stop laughing long enough so my ribs stop hurting.
See, I saw the solution to the OP (in the original thread) questions back in page one in about the single digit post. Now we have two thread that both are over 350 posts and still have those saying the sky is orange. I shall answer the questions put forth originally again...
If one had a tail to attack with as a Med creature, Tail Terror would likely give one a 1D6 Tail Slap.
You would need another way to get said tail, either through a third feat, morphing into an animal, somehow getting an Eidolon Evilution, through a class feature (such as an Alchemist) or getting a mechanical one made to use with one's armor.
No, a tail does not sprout fourth from your nethers.
How does two thread keep going like this. Where is the Kryptonite?
Kobolds have tails! (the stat block doesn't need to mention this specifically because the tail doesn't offer any numerical advantage directly). But the Dev's have taken the time to include the tails mention in the physical description of the Kobold and even go so far to mention how it's used to express feelings when communicating.
Their descendant could conceivably have a tail also; or the skin or the claws etc.. or any other racial characteristic.
Now [ThaX] and the rest may not agree to this but it's all there for you to read RAW. As I GM I would want a nice back-story around this trait and if allowable in PFS I'd expect the same there and expect the PC be prepared to role-play appropriately (clothes would need to be custom made etc...
Lot's of racial abilities are passed on via Bloodlines in PFS (and back in D&D), that's why you have half-elves, half-orcs, Tieflings, Aasimar etc...
Consider what a half-kobold might look like? Would they have their mothers tail and their fathers skin? Any sort of match is possible...
well... except half-dwarves... not too many of them around..
Racial heritage doesn't change your race, period. If you create an elf with the Racial Heritage (Kobold) feat, YOU ARE STILL AN ELF. It does not mean you get a tail and it does not mean you are half kobold!
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The Long Nose form is to disguise the beak, feathers, and the fact that the original race was a personified Crow. A human taking the feat would only get a big nose. A rogue with a disguise check could conceivably use the nose in a disguise to avoid being recognized.
I agree with you in that both feats (Tail Terror and Long Nose Form) might not be the best feats to get for a human, but that is what most of the argument is about.
"Oh, if I am spending two feats, I should be able to use them even if I didn't have the required feature to use it before..."
"Tails are really fingernails with no icing."
"I have pretty hair."
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You can take the feat but you still do not have a tail. To interpret the Racial Heritage feat this way is asinine.
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Racial Heritage (Kobold) does not make you half-Kobold.
Racial Heritage gives you something, one of your ancestors was a Kobold. I guess you could be 1/16 or 1/32 or 1/64 if so, whats to stop you being 1/2?
They may well be a Dev difference between a Half-Elf and Human with Racial Heritage (Elf) trait. But that's something I am happy to leave to the Dev's. It's their world that I enjoy playing after all.
Straight from the PRD
Racial Heritage
The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins.
Prerequisite: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
That is not RAW or RAI. There is nowhere in the rules that says if you are playing an ELF you can get a tail because you took the Racial Heritage feat, because ELVES DON'T HAVE TAILS.
It's very simple: Tail Terror was written with two assumptions: A) that you are a kobold, and B) that you have a tail. Assumption B is directly tied to assumption A. While Racial Heritage (Kobold) qualifies you for the feat Tail Terror, that does not mean you become a kobold or have any kobold-like qualities. You are still your base race and still only have the qualities of your base race.
You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race.
Tails are not effects, nor are they traits, feats, and so on. If you as GM want to houserule that a player can make up his racial traits, or heck, even use the provided race creation system in the Advanced Race Guide, go right ahead, but no sane GM would allow this around a PFS table.
Now if you want to get technical, IF you took Racial Heritage (Kobold) and Tail Terror and then subsequently, through the course of play, got a tail through some magic effect or item, then we're talking about a different scenario. But in no scenario does Tail Terror (or any other race restricted feat that requires a race-specific bodypart) automatically grant you a tail (or any other body part).
But, and I'm only going to say this one more time, no matter how you spin it, elves, half-elves, dwarves, humans, gnomes, halflings, and half-orcs do not get a tail simply because of these two feats at the creation of a character. That's just absurd.
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Thank you El Cuervo. You have put into words what others and myself have been trying to communicate to those that want this to be something that it is not.
Bludgeoner does not give you a Bludgeoning weapon, Weapon Focus (Shortsword) does not give you a Shortsword and this particular combo (Racial Heritage {Kobold} with Tail Terror) will not give a tailess race a tail.
Is waht teh fork Ahm sayin', Stand'?
Well, buying a shortsword will give me a shortsword, so obviously by this ironclad logic, I should be able to walk into a store, drop some coin on the counter, and grow a tail. Because tails are exactly like shortswords.
Well, buying a shortsword will give me a shortsword, so obviously by this ironclad logic, I should be able to walk into a store, drop some coin on the counter, and grow a tail. Because tails are exactly like shortswords.Does buying all those worms and hooks get expensive after a while?
Nope! I provide them to him.. free of charge.. Ehehehe.. I'll make a fortune cause I move more worms and hooks than other guys!
I've already pointed out those feats don't even use the same language. I'm just really surprised people are still pushing that same non-evidence this many pages later.
Straight from the PRD
Racial Heritage
The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins.
Prerequisite: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.That is not RAW or RAI. There is nowhere in the rules that says if you are playing an ELF you can get a tail because you took the Racial Heritage feat, because ELVES DON'T HAVE TAILS.
It's very simple: Tail Terror was written with two assumptions: A) that you are a kobold, and B) that you have a tail. Assumption B is directly tied to assumption A. While Racial Heritage (Kobold) qualifies you for the feat Tail Terror, that does not mean you become a kobold or have any kobold-like qualities. You are still your base race and still only have the qualities of your base race.
You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race.
Tails are not effects, nor are they traits, feats, and so on. If you as GM want to houserule that a player can make up his racial traits, or heck, even use the provided race creation system in the Advanced Race Guide, go right ahead, but no sane GM would allow this around a PFS table.
But, and I'm only going to say this one more time, no matter how you spin it, elves, half-elves, dwarves, humans, gnomes, halflings, and half-orcs do not get a tail simply because of these two feats at the creation of a character. That's just absurd.
firstly, you have to Human to take this trait. So a Half-Elf could technically take it and an Elf couldn't.
secondly, your quoting part of the benefit ignores the remainder of the sentence and allows it to be taken out of context. I have bolded the last sentence for emphasis - if you are Human and you take this feat you are...
Exactly how does "eligible to take a feat" equal grows additional body parts?
Straight from the PRD
Racial Heritage
The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins.
Prerequisite: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.firstly, you have to Human to take this trait. So a Half-Elf could technically take it and an Elf couldn't.
secondly, your quoting part of the benefit ignores the remainder of the sentence and allows it to be taken out of context. I have bolded the last sentence for emphasis - if you are Human and you take this feat you are eligible to take the feats and traits of your ancestor race.
Now, I can respect your position. But you still need to address why you believe some physical characteristics aren't inherited in this case. When so clearly they are across the range of races across all the books. (for example half-elves, who have clearly inherited some but not all of their parents features and Tieflings who also gain any number of different physical features from their parents - and their parentage is visibly across each different variation).
You can answer your own question in that sentence which I bolded. Every single ability or effect or whatever that says you gain limbs or turn into a creature (that has said limbs) .
This language is missing from Racial Heritage. Gone. Non-existent.
All Racial Heritage says is you qualify, for feats and traits related to race, and are affected by spells and abilities as if you were that race (in addition to being Human). We also include things similar to Feats, Traits, Spells, and Abilities, which I can assure you, that "physical characteristics," (as you put it) and "physiology" (as cuatroespada put it) do not fall under any of these categories set by them. They don't even begin to come close to being similar.
The feat makes also no mention as to how it affects physical characteristics whatsoever in its benefit. It does not even affect the character in terms of flavor whatsoever besides saying you have the blood of a non-human ancestor (which can be minute or mutated enough to where it doesn't matter).
I will tell you the same thing I've told cuatroespada; you have produced no evidence that the two feats, standalone, grant you a limb. Even at character creation, no less. Until you have, which I can tell you the odds are extremely against you, you cannot randomly grow limbs with these 2 feats alone (even at character creation).
Now, if you had an actual ability, feat, trait, spell, or whatever, separate from Racial Heritage and Tail Terror that comes out and says "You gain a tail limb," then by all means, use Tail Terror all you want.
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Can someone just answer the OP "yes" or "no" and be done with it? Or "good question - let your table decide"?
The thread title is really long and takes up a lot of real estate in the messageboards field the side of each page when it appears...
Why couldn't a Human (Racial Heritage: Kobold) posses the same racial non-mechanical characteristics as it's father and mother?
A human with Racial Heritage (Kobold) would have a human mother and father, because they are human, not half-Kobold.
Eh they are undefined percentage. It certainly wouldn't make sense if they took the feat in later levels but they could do a half kobold with the feat at level one. That's one of the few things the feat does allow.A human with Racial Heritage (Kobold) would have a human mother and father, because they are human, not half-Kobold.
Why couldn't a Human (Racial Heritage: Kobold) posses the same racial non-mechanical characteristics as it's father and mother?
A person with a human mother and Kobold father (or vice versa) would be a half-Kobold. Just like a human and elf produce half-elf and human and Orc produce half- Orc.
Wow, I applaud your passion. So let me address a couple of your points (as I was writing my previous post).
You can answer your own question in that sentence which I bolded. Every single ability or effect or whatever that says you gain limbs or turn into a creature (that has said limbs) COMES OUT AND SAYS YOU GET THE ASSOCIATED SUBJECTS.
This language is missing from Racial Heritage. Gone. Non-existent.
Or is simply not required. Mechanically Kobolds tails are not even mentioned in their stat block (they are purely cosmetic for roleplay purposes) but they are used by Kobolds every day in when speaking to other Kobolds.
The feat makes also no mention as to how it affects physical characteristics whatsoever in its benefit. It does not even affect the character in terms of flavor whatsoever besides saying you have the blood of a non-human ancestor (which can be minute or mutated enough to where it doesn't matter).There lots of feats/traits that don't cover every eventuality (our books would fill libraries if they did). Power Attack for example doesn't explicitly say what implement/weapon it can or can't be used, it simply exists.
You can answer your own question in that sentence which I bolded. Every single ability or effect or whatever that says you gain limbs or turn into a creature (that has said limbs) COMES OUT AND SAYS YOU GET THE ASSOCIATED SUBJECTS.Now, here you have only emphasised part of sentence. Not the whole paragraph which changes it's meaning. You are cherry-picking. The question I asked was "...you believe some physical characteristics aren't inherited in this case. When so clearly they are across the range of races across all the books..."
Why couldn't a Human (Racial Heritage: Kobold) posses the same racial non-mechanical characteristics as it's father and mother?
Humans regularly gain the claws, teeth,...
Tails are physiology that is a part of the race. Physiology is not a Feat or Trait they can take, or an Ability or Spell that affects them. It's not anything nearly defined as such. It's a description that, until the feat is taken, does nothing for them. A lot like how a Human with Blue Eyes doesn't do anything. But when there's a feat for Blue-eyed creatures to freeze people in place with a Gaze Attack, then in that instance I'd allow those with Blue eyes to take the feat.
And it's not like I'm saying they can't take the feat. What I'm saying is even if they take the feat, the feat does not grant them the associated ability, because they lack the physiology required by the feat.
Because Power Attack comes out and says when it does (and thusly does not) apply without the need to involve specific weapons:
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
With the bolded part, we can say that all melee weapons apply, whereas all ranged weapons do not (because the feat does not include ranged weapons in its bonuses and penalties).
The language says "you qualify". That's it. And that's only in regards to Feats and Traits. Nothing about growing body parts. Not a lick. If you can show me where it says you gain the physiology or grow limbs of said race, then you win. But you haven't produced this yet, and you never will, because the language does not exist. Period.
I read your whole statement. I just emphasized the part that answers your question. "Physical characteristics aren't inherited in this case." The feat makes no mention of physical characteristics, or even hints at them, so they aren't inherited, since the language isn't there to support such a bold claim.
And the book fully quantifies their species, and considers them a race of their own. The book says that Half-Elves receive both their Human and Elven ancestry equally, as well as says that Tieflings have several variant limbs and physical features; which is all cemented at character creation and doesn't change except by GM discretion. At what point does it do this for the Racial Heritage feat for Humans?
The problem is, you're trying to compare something that the book explains and elaborates upon, to something that the book doesn't even relate toward. The Book says what I stated above, and we can argue until we're blue in the face about it, but in the end the Book has it covered.
It does not say that Racial Heritage grants limbs or changes physiology. Allowing a feat to do more than what it says it does, ventures into the realm of houseruling, making it no longer a RAW feat, thus defeating the purpose of the feat combination being legit in a PFS or other similarly-ran game, which means in the end, you lose the argument of the feat combination being legit as per RAW.
Humans don't have Claw attacks, Bite Attacks, or Natural Armor. There are abilities that grant them Claw Attacks, Bite Attacks, or Natural Armor; the first 2 require limbs to make the attacks with, of which the Human race possesses. (Hands for Claws, Jaw/Mouth for Bite.) The Third does not.
As I've said before, you can't cut off your hand, and expect to make a claw attack with the stump. The physiology is just not there to support it. But if you grew the hand back, or even got a prosthetic limb simulating it...
A person with a human mother and Kobold father (or vice versa) would be a half-Kobold. Just like a human and elf produce half-elf and human and Orc produce half- Orc.Eh they are undefined percentage. It certainly wouldn't make sense if they took the feat in later levels but they could do a half kobold with the feat at level one. That's one of the few things the feat does allow.A human with Racial Heritage (Kobold) would have a human mother and father, because they are human, not half-Kobold.
Why couldn't a Human (Racial Heritage: Kobold) posses the same racial non-mechanical characteristics as it's father and mother?
undefined parentage? It could be it's Dad or Grandmother or even Great Grandmother, that's the beauty of PC's.
because they are human, not half-Kobold. Nope, they count as being a member of the race. (for a whole lot of mechanical stuff like traits and feats).
They could even be 3/4 Kobold and only 1/4 Human!
But only for the purpose of taking feats and traits, and being affected by spells and abilities dependant upon (sub)type, and anything similar to those subjects.
In no other way are they considered to be a Kobold. I could be really mean and argue that RAW, the feat doesn't adjust your (sub)type at all, since there is no language to support it. But it has been FAQ'd and I know the intentions of the feat better than that.
I toss my hat into the ring on the side that tail terror does not give you a tail. Sharpclaw works since the flavor of the feat simply says your nails are large and strong, but I see no reason for humans/half elves/half orcs could have tails without a wish or some hideous curse. The racial heritage feat would mention that you gained anything like wings, tails, talons, or other natural features of the race but it does not. Show me where racial heritage says you get a tail and I will gladly change my opinion.
Show me where racial heritage says you get a tail and I will gladly change my opinion.
I have been asking for this the entire time I've been in this thread.
Unfortunately, they are either too busy typing against us to post this supposed evidence, or they know it doesn't exist and are arguing futilely.
They could even be 3/4 Kobold and only 1/4 Human!
So elf plus half-elf equals human? You still don't see why you're wrong?
It's not a right or wrong question. Mechanically the character is equal parts of all races, that could be human, orc and ratfolk or any other humanoid mixture. Sure their base race would express strongest, make what ever agreement you want about dominant fantasy genetics. But the feat makes you just as much the heritage race as any other sub type you have and you can RP that in all kinds of ways.So elf plus half-elf equals human? You still don't see why you're wrong?
They could even be 3/4 Kobold and only 1/4 Human!
This an incorrect assumption. Mechanically, you are HUMAN. An ANCESTOR of yours was of a different race. Personally, I don't think I would even ALLOW for Racial Heritage (Kobold) because unlike elves and humans who produce half-elves, KOBOLDS AND HUMANS CAN'T MATE.
Now, let's set that aside and move onto point two. You must be HUMAN to take Racial Heritage, which means that you are, mechanically and physiologically, a HUMAN. Humans do not get tails, they do not get wings, and they do not get claws (barring any feats that add these features). Even if you somehow had some kobold blood in your ancestry, you would not have a tail, because you selected HUMAN as your race. Racial Heritage does NOT grant you the characteristics of that race, it only treats you as that race for purposes of feats, traits, and magic effects.
This is really simple and those arguing against this are being extremely obtuse. This is not a complicated math equation, it's a very simple logic problem.
No one is arguing that if you want to play some weirdo kobold-human hybrid at your table that you can't, but by the rules, MECHANICALLY, that is NOT A HUMAN. No NPC is going to recognize you as human if you have a prehensile reptilian tail, and I would not call a 1/2 kobold-human or even 1/4 kobold human a HUMAN, because they would be freaks of nature, abominations made by some deranged wizard. What you do at your own table is your business.
However, and this is the most important part: the question is in regards to PFS. This would never, not in a million years, be allowed at any PFS table. You show up at my PFS table with this on your sheet and I'm going to laugh in your face. End of discussion.
No one is arguing that if you want to play some weirdo kobold-human hybrid at your table that you can't, but by the rules, MECHANICALLY, that is NOT A HUMAN. No NPC is going to recognize you as human if you have a prehensile reptilian tail, and I would not call a 1/2 kobold-human or even 1/4 kobold human a HUMAN, because they would be freaks of nature, abominations made by some deranged wizard. What you do at your own table is your business.
However, and this is the most important part: the question is in regards to PFS. This would never, not in a million years, be allowed at any PFS table. You show up at my PFS table with this on your sheet and I'm going to laugh in your face. End of discussion.
Well.. since kobolds are not an allowed race in PFS...
Also, No NPC is going to recognize you as a human regardless. By RAW, the moment you take racial heritage, despite having absolutely NO physical changes, every NPC out there knows you're more than human. Somehow every NPC knows just how a (insert race)'s eyes flutter when they lie, or how (insert race) is all shifty and can instantly and easily identify you.
Also somewhere down the line there was a half-kobold. Unless we're going with the blood injection theory of old kobolds.
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Also, No NPC is going to recognize you as a human regardless. By RAW, the moment you take racial heritage, despite having absolutely NO physical changes, every NPC out there knows you're more than human. Somehow every NPC knows just how a (insert race)'s eyes flutter when they lie, or how (insert race) is all shifty and can instantly and easily identify you.Also somewhere down the line there was a half-kobold. Unless we're going with the blood injection theory of old kobolds.
Where are you getting that by RAW every NPC automatically recognizes your character as something other than human? That is definitely not RAW.